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From: Giangi72 (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Fri, 17.12.21 18:22
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Giangi72 <invalid@invalid.net>

Il 17/12/2021 18:04, Andy Burns ha scritto:
> Giangi72 wrote:
>
>> 500mA Max charging current."
>>
>> 1) What does it means? If I have a 700mA or 1000mA battery? Sorry for
>> this newbie question.
>
> I presume you mean 700mAh or 1000mAh capacity, rather than 500mA
> charging current, just mean it'll take between 90 minutes and 2 hours to
> charge

Sorry, obviously my fault it was mAh, I read 500mA and wrote 700mA.
My newbie question is:
I read "500mA Max charging current", if I have a 700mAh battery will it
work? Obviously with longer charging times.

>> 2) I don't understand how to charge the battery once  it is connected
>> to the board. Using usb port or detaching it and charging it externally?
>
> whenever USB power is supplied, the board will charge the battery.

Perfect, thanks.
Giangi

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Dennis Lee Bieber (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Fri, 17.12.21 12:52
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 11:44:28 +0100, Giangi72 <invalid@invalid.net>
declaimed the following:

>
>What are the main advantages to use ESP32 instead of Raspberry pi?

It is an embedded microCONTROLLER -- no OS (unless one ports FreeRTOS
to it; FreeRTOS is /not/ an OS as you may think, but rather a real-time
kernel that allows for priority-based threads within the application. I
don't think your application needs threads/processes -- unless WiFi/network
stack needs one). The installed application runs out of flash memory, it
doesn't get loaded into RAM before it can run -- so basically, the
application runs as soon as the processor initializes. That would simplify
a power cycle mode (you'd still have to figure out how to time a start-up
sequence -- though some may have a sleep mode using a separate clock chip
to wake up).

The R-Pi is a full COMPUTER with high-level OS. It is not considered
"real time". It has user accounts/privileges/etc., separation between
application and kernel operations.

While the basic Arduino is an 8-bit AVR, the old Arduino Due (and some
newer models) use 16/32-bit ARM chips and have more RAM (RAM is basically
only used for variable storage -- basically a large register bank).
AdaFruit Metro M4 is also an ARM based board with Arduino Uno pin-out.
Native mode is that a (Circuit)Python interpreter runs as the main
application, with user program loaded into a separate flash area. The Grand
Central board has the layout of an Arduino Mega. You can replace the
circuitPython interpreter with an Arduino type boot-loader, and use Arduino
IDE for programming.

Biggest drawback is that many do not have native networking/WiFi -- so
one needs an add-on board for network connections, and applications need to
include the suitable libraries to manage the network traffic; it is not
part of some amorphous OS. (TIVA TM4C1294 launchpads do have Ethernet, but
one still needs to use a library linked into one's code).

And all of these would benefit from an add-on battery-backed up RTC
(microcontrollers don't even attempt to keep "wall clock" time; they just
count clock ticks from last boot up).



--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Dennis Lee Bieber (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Fri, 17.12.21 13:40
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:41:14 -0000, John Aldridge <jpsa@cantab.net>
declaimed the following:

>
>1. Use a Very Big battery. AFAIR, a PiZeroW draws around 250 mA on
>average, when idling, so something around 40 Ah at 5V. Say 20 Ah at 12V,
>after you've included the 12V->5V voltage converter. It'll be something
>like a car battery in size, and correspondingly expensive.
>
Probably closer to a motorcycle battery <G> for the 10-20Ah 12V.
Motorcycle batteries can be picked up in one hand.

Might want a deep discharge model (trolling motor style), but those
will be full (car) battery size. Regular (starter motor) batteries are
designed for high current draw over a short period of time -- 100+ Amps for
5-15 seconds. They aren't designed for long term drains, even dropping
below around 9.5V will damage one. You'd have to keep a float charger on
the battery -- and maybe air vents as they may give off noxious fumes.

https://www.outoftheww.com/projects/what-does-amp-hour-mean
Two 3.6V 2000mAH cells would provide 7.2V 2AH on a barrel connector (most
of these embedded boards are designed for 6-9 (or 6-12) volt via connector
and have an on board regulator to produce 5V and 3.3V.

Charging Li-Ion batteries is not simple, advanced charging circuits
include temperature sensors to detect when the charge has peaked and avoid
overheating the battery.


>
>3. Use a different processor, e.g. Arduino, ESP32, RP2040. I don't have
>any personal experience, but I think these all support a low power deep-
>sleep mode from which you can wake on a timer.

https://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/LowPowerDeepSleep
https://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/LowPowerIdle

With a time in milliseconds, the longest sleep time may still be just a
few seconds -- on a board with 16-bit integers/registers, 32768mSec -> 32
Seconds between timed wakes.

Calling without a sleep time means it only wakes on an external event
https://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/LowPowerAttachInterruptWakeup

NOTE: the above are only available on some of the ARM core Arduino
boards. cf: https://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/ArduinoLowPower

If you can find one,
https://store-usa.arduino.cc/products/arduino-mkr1000-wifi?selectedStore=us
supports the low power sleep, and has WiFi on-board.

https://store-usa.arduino.cc/products/arduino-uno-wifi-rev2?selectedStore=us
On-board WiFi and TCP stack, but doesn't support low power sleep.


--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: The Natural Philosopher (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Fri, 17.12.21 19:10
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>

On 17/12/2021 18:40, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> Charging Li-Ion batteries is not simple, advanced charging circuits
> include temperature sensors to detect when the charge has peaked and avoid
> overheating the battery.

In cars perhaps. Not at lower capacities. Temperature sensors do not
detect 'when the battery has charged' on Li-Ion. Voltage detects that.
The temperature sensors on big vehicle packs are there for safety, in
case a cell goes bad and overheats.


The very simple 'charge each cell at less than the hourly rate to 4.2v
and no more' algorithm dominates hobby chargers.

The R/C model community has all the bits and pieces to charge packs and
the requisite circuitry to drop the voltage to 5V for avionics - or Pi -
usage.
e.g.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/zippy-compact-8000mah-2s1p-30c.html
= 8 Ah 7.4v battery.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-5a-8-26v-sbec-for-lipo.html
= Switched mode 5V output regulator

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-e3-compact-2s-3s-lipo-charger-100-240v-eu-pl
ug.html
= 3 x 800mAh balancing charger.

Put that lot together and you have a system that will deliver ~5V/1A
average for as long as the mains is on, and for about 10 hours if the
mains goes out.


--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Mon, 20.12.21 23:05
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
Giangi72 <invalid@invalid.net> wrote:
> [CUT]
> This means there is no way to power raspberry by battery and let it last
> for at least a week?

It's possible...it's just a matter of figuring out how big a battery pack
would do that. Someone else theorized that a pack built of 14500 Li-ion
cells (two in series, presumably, through a buck converter to get 5V) might
run a Raspberry Pi 3B+ for five hours. 18650s are more common and larger;
for sake of argument, let's say you get 3x the runtime (2400 mAh) from an
18650 as you'd get from a 14500. If two 18650s would run the aforementioned
RPi 3B+ for 15 hours, 24 18650s in a 2S12P configuration would provide 7.5
days of runtime.

Whether a pack made of two dozen 18650s would be too large for your
application is a question only you can answer. Smile

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Folderol (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Tue, 21.12.21 16:46
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Folderol <general@musically.me.uk>

On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 23:05:36 GMT
scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:

>Giangi72 <invalid@invalid.net> wrote:
>> [CUT]
>> This means there is no way to power raspberry by battery and let it last
>> for at least a week?
>
>It's possible...it's just a matter of figuring out how big a battery pack
>would do that. Someone else theorized that a pack built of 14500 Li-ion
>cells (two in series, presumably, through a buck converter to get 5V) might
>run a Raspberry Pi 3B+ for five hours. 18650s are more common and larger;
>for sake of argument, let's say you get 3x the runtime (2400 mAh) from an
>18650 as you'd get from a 14500. If two 18650s would run the aforementioned
>RPi 3B+ for 15 hours, 24 18650s in a 2S12P configuration would provide 7.5
>days of runtime.
>
>Whether a pack made of two dozen 18650s would be too large for your
>application is a question only you can answer. Smile


I wouldn't advise it! Once you start stacking up large numbers of batteries all
sorts of load balancing issues become apparent - both for charge and discharge.

--
Basic

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Martin Gregorie (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Tue, 21.12.21 19:21
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid>

On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 16:46:09 +0000, Folderol wrote:

>
> I wouldn't advise it! Once you start stacking up large numbers of
> batteries all sorts of load balancing issues become apparent - both for
> charge and discharge.
>
Quite, Unless you've got some cutting-edge chippery that can run for
months of a 2032 coin cell, there are only about two sensible ways to go:

1) use some sort of UPS with sufficient battery capacity to run your
calendar for 2-3 hours until the power comes back AND has the ability to
tell your system to do an orderly shutdown if the power hasn't come back
and its battery is nearly flat. If you choose a Pi, as least some of the
UPS HATs made for fitting to a Pi can't do that.

2) Forget about using Internet time and use either a GPS receiver or one
of the VLF frequency time broadcasts as your master time source. That
might use:

- the DCF77 German sime signal with Conrad part number 641138-92
as receiver

- http://www.buzzard.me.uk/jonathan/radioclock.html using the Rugbk (UK)
time signal - it can be interfaced to the standard Linux time system
using this software:
http://www.buzzard.me.uk/jonathan/downloads/radioclk-1.0.tar.gz

- one of the US time sources, WWVB or WWVH

I've used Jonathon Buzzard's receiver and Rugby in the past: its 'just
worked'

I've also used GPS time - older Puck-style receivers can be picked up in
FleaBay. They normally use an RS-232 serial connection as output, and
good, inexpensive RS-232->USB adapters are easy to find.

The benefit of of these time sources is that it doesn't matter if your
calendar does get killed by a storm or power cut: when power comes back
the system can re-boot and re-establish an accurate time in a few minutes
at most. also, it will still work if the power cut took out your section
of the internet.

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Theo (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Tue, 21.12.21 22:46
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:
> The benefit of of these time sources is that it doesn't matter if your
> calendar does get killed by a storm or power cut: when power comes back
> the system can re-boot and re-establish an accurate time in a few minutes
> at most. also, it will still work if the power cut took out your section
> of the internet.

The OP wants to display their Google Calendar and todo list in a frame on
their wall. That requires an internet connection. You can't display the
appointments in their calendar without fetching it from the internet - you
could only have a generic day/date calendar which is not what they're asking
for. I suppose you could cache the calendar in case the network goes down,
and a third party time source would help with bring that back up, but that's
a fairly niche use case, and no help if the calendar is later changed.

And so the problem is that the OP needs an internet connection but the power
consumption is too high to run a Pi full time unless the battery is
implausibly large to mount on the wall. The key is thus turning things off
- either running a Pi on some kind of timeswitch, or using something that is
better at entering a low power sleep mode.

Finding out the time is not the problem, getting the calendar updates is.
The dilemma is that something that can handle the complexity of talking to
the Google servers is probably not low power enough to run from a battery in
a wall frame for a week/month/year. Which is what makes me think a two-box
solution is the way forward.

Theo

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Martin Gregorie (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Tue, 21.12.21 23:32
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid>

On 21 Dec 2021 22:46:27 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:

> Finding out the time is not the problem, getting the calendar updates
> is. The dilemma is that something that can handle the complexity of
> talking to the Google servers is probably not low power enough to run
> from a battery in a wall frame for a week/month/year. Which is what
> makes me think a two-box solution is the way forward.
>
Yes, that or using a UPS with a smaller 1-2 hour battery, which probably
would keep it up indefinitely with mains power thats as reliable as here
or in most of the EU.

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Axel Berger (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 09:16
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Axel Berger <Spam@Berger-Odenthal.De>

Theo wrote:
> That requires an internet connection. You can't display the
> appointments in their calendar without fetching it from the internet - you
> could only have a generic day/date calendar which is not what they're asking
> for.

That's not true. All my calendars are local to my phone and not synced
to anything not fully under my control. I regularly save backups over my
LAN at home and could import that to any other local calendar.

In the present case you do have a point though, unless the OP is
satisfied with having his appointments on the wall at home and nowhere
else. But that too does not need the internet. Syncing between the
(presumably) phone and the wall box over the LAN when at home would
suffice.


--

\ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Stra?e 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069

/ \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 08:50
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:16:19 +0100
Axel Berger <Spam@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:

> Theo wrote:
> > That requires an internet connection. You can't display the
> > appointments in their calendar without fetching it from the internet -
> > you could only have a generic day/date calendar which is not what
> > they're asking for.
>
> That's not true. All my calendars are local to my phone and not synced

The OP did specify *Google* calendar - which I rather think does
require a public internet connection.

There are of course other solutions that do not but from the
perspective of a battery powered, wireless device on the wall it makes no
difference whether the data is on a local server, at Google or elsewhere it
has to be accessed using IP - in other words over an internet connection
and it makes no difference whether the scope of that connection is global
or local.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Theo (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 09:29
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Axel Berger <Spam@berger-odenthal.de> wrote:
> Theo wrote:
> > That requires an internet connection. You can't display the
> > appointments in their calendar without fetching it from the internet - you
> > could only have a generic day/date calendar which is not what they're
asking
> > for.
>
> That's not true. All my calendars are local to my phone and not synced
> to anything not fully under my control. I regularly save backups over my
> LAN at home and could import that to any other local calendar.
>
> In the present case you do have a point though, unless the OP is
> satisfied with having his appointments on the wall at home and nowhere
> else. But that too does not need the internet. Syncing between the
> (presumably) phone and the wall box over the LAN when at home would
> suffice.

Like I said, the OP's calendar lives on Google Calendar. You can't fetch
that without internet, because that calendar lives in the cloud. You can
sync to something locally (a server/phone/another Pi), and then the wall
frame fetches from there, which is the two-box solution I suggested. If you
want a one-box solution you need internet on your one box, there's no
getting around that.

You can of course have a wall frame without an internet connection, to which
you enter calendar entries on a touch screen or SD card or whatever. But
that is an entirely different problem from the one the OP asked for, which
was something to show live updates from their Google Calendar. As is
worrying about getting the time from GPS, which is also a problem the OP
doesn't have.

Theo

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 10:22
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net>

On 22 Dec 2021 09:29:59 +0000 (GMT)
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Like I said, the OP's calendar lives on Google Calendar. You can't fetch
> that without internet, because that calendar lives in the cloud. You can
> sync to something locally (a server/phone/another Pi), and then the wall
> frame fetches from there, which is the two-box solution I suggested. If
> you want a one-box solution you need internet on your one box, there's no
> getting around that.

Quite so, and the easiest (but expensive) way to achieve a one box
solution would be to use an off the shelf e-ink tablet such as a Likebook,
but given that they have a display in hand to use and want to DIY the ESP32
option being explored elsethread seems to fit the requirements.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: The Natural Philosopher (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 11:56
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>

On 21/12/2021 16:46, Folderol wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 23:05:36 GMT
> scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
>
>> Giangi72 <invalid@invalid.net> wrote:
>>> [CUT]
>>> This means there is no way to power raspberry by battery and let it last
>>> for at least a week?
>>
>> It's possible...it's just a matter of figuring out how big a battery pack
>> would do that. Someone else theorized that a pack built of 14500 Li-ion
>> cells (two in series, presumably, through a buck converter to get 5V) might
>> run a Raspberry Pi 3B+ for five hours. 18650s are more common and larger;
>> for sake of argument, let's say you get 3x the runtime (2400 mAh) from an
>> 18650 as you'd get from a 14500. If two 18650s would run the aforementioned
>> RPi 3B+ for 15 hours, 24 18650s in a 2S12P configuration would provide 7.5
>> days of runtime.
>>
>> Whether a pack made of two dozen 18650s would be too large for your
>> application is a question only you can answer. Smile
>
>
> I wouldn't advise it! Once you start stacking up large numbers of batteries
all
> sorts of load balancing issues become apparent - both for charge and
discharge.
>
Not really. not for parelleling.

The charge/voltage curves for cells are all similar, what differs is
their capacity , so you might think it a problem as some cells charge up
sooner than others, but that doesn't matter except at very high charge
rates, because the same voltage represents the same state of charge for
all the paralleled cells.


But lithium batteries up to 10AH or even more are available. And at 14v
nominal that's 140 Watt hours, and a Pi is about what - 5 watts or so?

Or a car battery at 12v/70Ah nets you 160 hours

Forget voltages and architectures - that's all soluble, just pick a
battery that has the capacity you need and is happy to be trickle
charged at slightly more than the Pis power draw.

Pi draw is roughly 5W.
a week is 7x24 = 168 hours

168 hours times 5 W = 840 watt hours

At 12v nominal that is 70 A/h which is spot on for a car or caravan battery.

Looking at lithium cells I cant find a pack at less than £100 that comes
close.

440Wh at £156 and 22v is closest.

So at least you know what you will be dealing with. A car or caravan
battery.

And then the problem resolves into how to step the voltage down for api
- but that trivial - the amount of car to USB power converters is
enormous, and likewise mains to trickle charge a caravan battery is off
the self.


--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Andy Burns (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 12:13
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> just pick a battery that has the capacity you need and is happy to be trickle
> charged at slightly more than the Pis  power draw.

Once you reach the point where the battery is too large to fit within the frame
on the wall, you either have to re-think whether a dangling power cable is
acceptable, or use something other than a Pi ...

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: The Natural Philosopher (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 12:21
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>

On 22/12/2021 12:13, Andy Burns wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> just pick a battery that has the capacity you need and is happy to be
>> trickle charged at slightly more than the Pis  power draw.
>
> Once you reach the point where the battery is too large to fit within
> the frame on the wall, you either  have to re-think whether a dangling
> power cable is acceptable, or use something other than a Pi ...
>
Well exactly. peole seem to think that engineering is how to make stuff work

Mostly the theoretic side of engineering is there to show you what stiff
can never work, so its crazy to build it.

Hasn't stopped renewable energy though, but then they never bothered to
analyse it, they just built it for profit. irrespective of whether it
worked or not.



--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
...than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Axel Berger (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 13:42
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Axel Berger <Spam@Berger-Odenthal.De>

Theo wrote:
> Like I said, the OP's calendar lives on Google Calendar.

Perhaps I misunderstood, or at least understood differently. For you a
Google calendar is a calendar maintained for you by Google in their
cloud. For me it's the calendar app in my phone and provided by Google.


--

\ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Stra?e 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069

/ \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Martin Gregorie (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 12:56
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid>

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:21:39 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Hasn't stopped renewable energy though, but then they never bothered to
> analyse it, they just built it for profit. irrespective of whether it
> worked or not.
>
The only really crazy item on the table right now is so-called "Blue
Hydrogen": the energetics of making it mean that burning coal is less
environmentally damaging than making and using the 'Blue hydrogen'.

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: The Natural Philosopher (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 13:18
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>

On 22/12/2021 12:56, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 12:21:39 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Hasn't stopped renewable energy though, but then they never bothered to
>> analyse it, they just built it for profit. irrespective of whether it
>> worked or not.
>>
> The only really crazy item on the table right now is so-called "Blue
> Hydrogen": the energetics of making it mean that burning coal is less
> environmentally damaging than making and using the 'Blue hydrogen'.
>
I beg to differ. Everything on the table right now is crazy.
I've spent many years analysing it, and the only thing that will
actually work, other than a 97% drop in population and a return to the
sort oft technology the Greens would understand. Presumably horses whose
methane emanations would be forgotten in their sheer organicity... is
nuclear power of some sort.

Its abundant, uranium is ubiquitous, cheap and easily stockpiled, and
comes already stored. The reactors are well understood known technology,
and it transpires that radiation isn't nearly as dangerous as we had
been led to believe, and we could easily achieve adequate safety at much
lower cost.

But nuclear isn't on the table. Every other permutation of artStudent™
thinking in terms of wacky schemes that were discarded generations ago
by sane engineers, are the substance of dinner party chatterati.
Hydrogen, carbon capture, Geothermal, tidal, wave, run of river,
spinning flywheels, grid scale batteries molten salt tanks (that one
might almost work with a nuke to drive it) heat pumps, electric cars.
All of this to avoid the basic solution that nuclear power means, at a
stroke, you don't need ANY of that crap.

At current electricity wholesale prices, a nuclear fed simple restive
heater would be one third the cost of a renewable fed heat pump in terms
of electricity, and one tenth the installation cost. Not very efficient,
but who cares? uranium is cheap as chips and there's tonnes and tonnes
of it around and you don't need very much. E=mC^2 etc etc

In short there is no shortage of cheap energy. Of all the problems
society has, lack of cheap energy is not one of them. Only our refusal
to embrace it is the problem

That doesn't sort out the use of fossil fuels as chemical feedstocks of
course, and as the only appropriate energy density energy source to fly
transatlantic airliners, but we will all be locked down anyway, wont we.?





--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Martin Gregorie (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 22.12.21 14:01
Re: E-ink calendar and ToDo list
From: Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid>

On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 13:18:14 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> I beg to differ. Everything on the table right now is crazy.
> I've spent many years analysing it, and the only thing that will
> actually work, other than a 97% drop in population and a return to the
> sort oft technology the Greens would understand. Presumably horses whose
> methane emanations would be forgotten in their sheer organicity... is
> nuclear power of some sort.
>
You're certainly right about population. That seems to be such a bad
thing to say that its not even whispered about by anybody. Yet, any
attempt to prevent global warming is doomed to failure without reductions
in both the humam population and in individual (net) resource consumption.

> Its abundant, uranium is ubiquitous, cheap and easily stockpiled, and
> comes already stored. The reactors are well understood known technology,
> and it transpires that radiation isn't nearly as dangerous as we had
> been led to believe, and we could easily achieve adequate safety at much
> lower cost.
>
Maybe it can be used, presumably in small factory-produced, reactors
similar to those used in submarines, but studies I've seen point out that
in terms of global warming, nukes still produce around 30% of the CO2
from conventional thermal generation once mining and refining the stuff
is taken into account:
Storm van Leeuwen & Smith - http://www.stormsmith.nl/

This also fails to ignore the problem of dealing with fanatics who think
nuking someone or something would Be A Good Idea.

I'n not against nuclear, PROVIDED THAT the problems of disposing of the
radioactive waste from fuel preparation and the radioactive debris from
decommissioning old plant can be sorted out. To date the solutions have
mostly been to pile the junk in a corner and hope nobody notices it.

> That doesn't sort out the use of fossil fuels as chemical feedstocks of
> course, and as the only appropriate energy density energy source to fly
> transatlantic airliners,
>
True enough, do we really need so many transatlantic airliners? Also, I'm
seeing talk of running ships on Ammonia rather then heavy oil:

NH3 + O2 => N2 + H2O + energy

Is ammonia's energy content high enough to run an airliner? Gaseous
hydrogen's isn't and nor is liquid hydrogen's once to take density/volume/
container mass into account.

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

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