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From: Tobiah (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 03.06.20 20:08
Keep the Mac or eBay it?
Model Name: Mac mini
Model Identifier: Macmini7,1
Processor Name: Intel Core i5
Processor Speed: 1.4 GHz
Number of Processors: 1
Total Number of Cores: 2
L2 Cache (per Core): 256 KB
L3 Cache: 3 MB
Memory: 4 GB


It has a 5400RPM hard drive which can be upgraded
with about an hour's effort and some luck.

The RAM is soldered in and can not be upgraded, at
least not by me.

I've wanted to switch to Mac for a long time, but
I have never owned one before now. My current PC
has an AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 910 Processor, 8Gig
and Windows 10. I don't want to take a noticeable
performance hit. How much is 4Gig going to hamper
things on a Mac? I do use some large Kontakt libraries.

I also need to upgrade the monitor since only the
HDMI output will drive the resolution I'm after.
I wanted to do that anyway, but that's another $350.

I can get about $300 for this thing on eBay.
If I were to upgrade, are the Mini's the way to
go? I understand the towers are thousands of
dollars.

I've never been able to bridge the gap to get to
a Mac. I would miss being able to get my hands
into the machine and replace/upgrade parts of it.
Maybe hackintosh? What are serious Mac users using
for tracking and production?

Sorry for rambling.

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From: geoff (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 16:14
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 4/06/2020 3:08 pm, Tobiah wrote:
> Model Name:             Mac mini
> Model Identifier:       Macmini7,1
> Processor Name:         Intel Core i5
> Processor Speed:        1.4 GHz
> Number of Processors:   1
> Total Number of Cores:  2
> L2 Cache (per Core):    256 KB
> L3 Cache:               3 MB
> Memory: 4 GB
>
>
> It has a 5400RPM hard drive which can be upgraded
> with about an hour's effort and some luck.
>
> The RAM is soldered in and can not be upgraded, at
> least not by me.
>
> I've wanted to switch to Mac for a long time, but
> I have never owned one before now.  My current PC
> has an AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 910 Processor, 8Gig
> and Windows 10.  I don't want to take a noticeable
> performance hit.  How much is 4Gig going to hamper
> things on a Mac?  I do use some large Kontakt libraries.
>
> I also need to upgrade the monitor since only the
> HDMI output will drive the resolution I'm after.
> I wanted to do that anyway, but that's another $350.
>
> I can get about $300 for this thing on eBay.
> If I were to upgrade, are the Mini's the way to
> go?  I understand the towers are thousands of
> dollars.
>
> I've never been able to bridge the gap to get to
> a Mac.  I would miss being able to get my hands
> into the machine and replace/upgrade parts of it.
> Maybe hackintosh?  What are serious Mac users using
> for tracking and production?
>
> Sorry for rambling.


The thing that jumps out at me from all this is ......"Why ?".

geoff

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From: Tobiah (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 03.06.20 21:23
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
> The thing that jumps out at me from all this is ......"Why ?".
>
> geoff
>

Why what?

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From: Phil W (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 07:33
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
Am 04.06.2020 um 06:14 schrieb geoff:
> On 4/06/2020 3:08 pm, Tobiah wrote:
>> Model Name:             Mac mini
>> Model Identifier:       Macmini7,1
>> Processor Name:         Intel Core i5
>> Processor Speed:        1.4 GHz
>> Number of Processors:   1
>> Total Number of Cores:  2
>> L2 Cache (per Core):    256 KB
>> L3 Cache:               3 MB
>> Memory: 4 GB
>>
>>
>> It has a 5400RPM hard drive which can be upgraded
>> with about an hour's effort and some luck.
>>
>> The RAM is soldered in and can not be upgraded, at
>> least not by me.
>>
>> I've wanted to switch to Mac for a long time, but
>> I have never owned one before now.  My current PC
>> has an AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 910 Processor, 8Gig
>> and Windows 10.  I don't want to take a noticeable
>> performance hit.  How much is 4Gig going to hamper
>> things on a Mac?  I do use some large Kontakt libraries.
>>
>> I also need to upgrade the monitor since only the
>> HDMI output will drive the resolution I'm after.
>> I wanted to do that anyway, but that's another $350.
>>
>> I can get about $300 for this thing on eBay.
>> If I were to upgrade, are the Mini's the way to
>> go?  I understand the towers are thousands of
>> dollars.
>>
>> I've never been able to bridge the gap to get to
>> a Mac.  I would miss being able to get my hands
>> into the machine and replace/upgrade parts of it.
>> Maybe hackintosh?  What are serious Mac users using
>> for tracking and production?
>>
>> Sorry for rambling.
>
>
> The thing that jumps out at me from all this is ......"Why ?".
>
> geoff

Probably because of the popular misbelief, that one "needs" to use a
Mac, if you want to make music with a computer. Personally, I think that
is rather all about an expensive status symbol for snobs, but nothing else.
Having used friends´ Macs during recording and mixing sessions with them
many times for years, I have learned, that the grass is *not* greener on
either side - Macs are just more expensive and introduce at least the
same amount of everyday computer problems than a Windows-based system.
Besides that, think of the problems introduced by Apple changing
something for audio about every year, which leads to problems with audio
interface drivers, plug-ins, ... if one happens to use an audio
interface, which does not get annual driver updates (=most models by
most manufacturers) to keep up with Apple´s latest changes, you can also
collect a pile of interfaces because of that, because old drivers won´t
work anymore usually.
In my opinion, that is pretty contrary to having a system, that "just
works", so you can keep making music and not need to worry about keeping
the system running - which is pretty much the myth, that most Mac buyers
want to believe.

For example, my Windows-based system still uses the same M-Audio PCI
Delta Audio interface as in the last 17 years with the latest drivers
for Windows Vista/7 still working on Windows 10 nowadays. Yes, I know,
that´s rather luck than anything else, but my Mac friends need to spend
a few hundred EUR every 3-4 years because of lacking drivers for the
latest MacOS, which they need to upgrade to to run other programs.

So, either sell or keep that Mac mini, but if you invest any money, it´s
better spent on upgrades for your Windows-based system, which is a lot
more flexible for upgrading single aspects like RAM, CPU, drives.


Phil

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From: John Williamson (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 08:34
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 04/06/2020 06:33, Phil W wrote:

> For example, my Windows-based system still uses the same M-Audio PCI
> Delta Audio interface as in the last 17 years with the latest drivers
> for Windows Vista/7 still working on Windows 10 nowadays. Yes, I know,
> that´s rather luck than anything else, but my Mac friends need to spend
> a few hundred EUR every 3-4 years because of lacking drivers for the
> latest MacOS, which they need to upgrade to to run other programs.
>
Many years ago, when they introduced Vista, Microsloshed introduced the
Windows Driver Model, which gave all drivers a stable, documented way to
interact with the operating system.

Any WDM compatible driver will work with any version later than XP. The
only problem is that Windows 10 likes to see a "signed" driver, which
early ones are no, but this is easily circumvented.

I'm not going to admit to using a couple of XP drivers for obscure
Windows 98 stuff which just happened to work under Vista, because I got
rid of that interface a while ago.

I am still running a PC which was originally delivered with XP
installed, then updated to Vista, and when I finally installed Windows
10, and told it to accept unsigned drivers, all the Vista ones worked,
even the fingerprint sensor.

Nor am I going to brag about finding a way to run some games that were
originally written to run under Windows 3.0.

> So, either sell or keep that Mac mini, but if you invest any money, it´s
> better spent on upgrades for your Windows-based system, which is a lot
> more flexible for upgrading single aspects like RAM, CPU, drives.
>
This. You also won't have to learn how to work a computer all over again.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

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From: geoff (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 19:52
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 4/06/2020 4:23 pm, Tobiah wrote:
>> The thing that jumps out at me from all this is ......"Why ?".
>>
>> geoff
>>
>
> Why what?


Why do you feel the need change change your computer (a downgrade in
this particular model instance) that may render your current software
unusable, or at least complicated to get it to work.

geoff

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From: Tobiah (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 07:53
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
> Why do you feel the need change change your computer (a downgrade in
> this particular  model instance) that may render your current software
> unusable, or at least complicated to get it to work.

Mostly because it's a Unix system. I'm a programmer
by trade, and I spend a lot of time on the command
line. I dual boot Linux and live there for anything
except music. I banged my heart at Linux audio for
enough years. I spent all my time configuring and
none creating. Also my favorite interface is not
yet supported.

So I use Cygwin on Windows to get a decent shell,
but it's a band-aid on a band-aid. I wanted to
be on a Unix OS where I'm comfy, with real audio
support.

Also, a couple of fellow developers at work are
Mac heads and I've seen them use them for years.
I found that it looked like an attractive alternative.

Now, I also wanted a seamless audio production
experience. I'll take into account some of the comments
that have been made here.

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From: John Williamson (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 16:09
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 04/06/2020 15:53, Tobiah wrote:
>> Why do you feel the need change change your computer (a downgrade in
>> this particular model instance) that may render your current software
>> unusable, or at least complicated to get it to work.
>
> Mostly because it's a Unix system. I'm a programmer
> by trade, and I spend a lot of time on the command
> line. I dual boot Linux and live there for anything
> except music. I banged my heart at Linux audio for
> enough years. I spent all my time configuring and
> none creating. Also my favorite interface is not
> yet supported.

Apple software is based on a *nix kernel. That's about as close as it
gets to being a *nix system, as the UI and other stuff is pure Apple.
The hardware is now mostly Intel based, so you can, in theory, use any
x86 compatible operating system.

> Now, I also wanted a seamless audio production
> experience. I'll take into account some of the comments
> that have been made here.
>

In my friends' experience, Macs are great as long as you want to things
their way, and a nightmare if you don't. This even applies to their
phones, which, for example, use a photo file format that nobody else can
read.

The Walled Garden approach makes them reliable within their limits,
which are precisely defined. Outside that garden you are on your own...

If what you want is a seamless production environment, take the hit to
your wallet and get Protools. It "just works", and projects can be
worked on in just about any studio or mastering suite that uses it.

Alternatively, many people use the Adobe suite, where the audio and
video tools work very well together. It is now "Software As A Service",
though, so unless you keep subscribing, it stops working.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

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From: Mike Rivers (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 11:21
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 6/4/2020 10:53 AM, Tobiah wrote:
>> Why do you feel the need change change your computer

> Mostly because it's a Unix system.  I'm a programmer
> by trade, and I spend a lot of time on the command
> line.  I dual boot Linux and live there for anything
> except music.

I have about 7 active computers around here, some for music, some for
other stuff. Nobody has to have just one. ;)




--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

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From: Tobiah (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 09:16
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
> Apple software is based on a *nix kernel. That's about as close as it
> gets to being a *nix system, as the UI and other stuff is pure Apple.

From what I can tell, it's a Unix system with a proprietary kernel,
POSIX compliant and certified by The Open Group. The UI is really
just a program that runs in that environment.

I get bash and all of the Unixy command line tools and it feels
like an old pair of blue jeans.

> In my friends' experience, Macs are great as long as you want to things
> their way, and a nightmare if you don't. This even applies to their
> phones, which, for example, use a photo file format that nobody else can
> read.
>
> The Walled Garden approach makes them reliable within their limits,
> which are precisely defined. Outside that garden you are on your own...

Yeah, I'm naturally repelled by their isolated eco-system. I recognize
that even if I made this machine work, eventually, it would be time
to upgrade and they tend to make computers as a unit, rather like
phones. The fact that I can't upgrade the RAM in this machine is
representative of the product. I would miss being able to go down
to Fry's and come back with a new mobo, cpu and ram for a small
assortment of Franklins.

> If what you want is a seamless production environment, take the hit to
> your wallet and get Protools.

I happen to dig Reaper. It's not my gripe. I'm tired of Windows and am
probably looking at OS X through rosy lenses. I like to write programs
that make music, with csound and other tools. I think it would be nice
to do that in a Unix-like environment and have a solid recording
environment available at the same time.

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From: Scott Dorsey (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 16:45
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
Try it. It won't cost you anything to try it since you already have it.
You might like it. I do; I think the bash command language is a whole hell
of a lot nicer than Powershell, and it makes it very easy to do operations
like batch normalizing and batch resampling files when you're trying to get
large projects done, or ship out a lot of slightly different demos of a
project.

If you don't like it, by all means sell it.

The Apple thing is that it's a closed platform, so you pay more money, but
you know the hardware will meet at least some basic minimal standard and
if something goes wrong the hardware and software people can't point fingers
at one another because they are one and the same.

I like the Apple OS a lot more than Windows, but then I spend most of my
time on the command line. Your mileage may differ, and it won't cost you
any money to find out.

At the very least trying it out will let you get some basic operating skill
so that when you're in some studio with an Apple you won't be at a loss.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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From: Scott Dorsey (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 16:51
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>Apple software is based on a *nix kernel. That's about as close as it
>gets to being a *nix system, as the UI and other stuff is pure Apple.
>The hardware is now mostly Intel based, so you can, in theory, use any
>x86 compatible operating system.

It's kind of the opposite. Internally, it's based on the Mach microkernel
which isn't really very Unixlike at all but which offers a Unixlike API.
What you get with the Apple is the Unix UI, that is to say a real command
line shell and the Software Tools environment.

Apple has a cheesy GUI on top of this, but you don't have to use the GUI
for anything other than running your DAW itself. You can stay on the command
line like a normal computer.

Now.. Apple has chosen to do some stuff, like managing USB devices, very
differently than other Unix dialects. If you are used to how NetBSD
or Linux handle audio streams, OSX does them all differently.

>If what you want is a seamless production environment, take the hit to
>your wallet and get Protools. It "just works", and projects can be
>worked on in just about any studio or mastering suite that uses it.

Protools has -finally- got to the point of just working with Protools 7.
Before that, you couldn't expect to get out the same data you put in if
you just loaded a file and didn't edit it but saved it. But the bloat
set in long before then. Still, we use Protools because that is what
the customers want.

>Alternatively, many people use the Adobe suite, where the audio and
>video tools work very well together. It is now "Software As A Service",
>though, so unless you keep subscribing, it stops working.

And that is a catastrophic problem if your computer is kept completely
isolated, which any DAW should be.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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From: Jason (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.06.20 18:16
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
In article <rbbmsd$ipp$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com says...
> >Alternatively, many people use the Adobe suite, where the audio and
> >video tools work very well together. It is now "Software As A Service",
> >though, so unless you keep subscribing, it stops working.
>
> And that is a catastrophic problem if your computer is kept completely
> isolated, which any DAW should be.
>

There is no need to be online to use the applications. You can isolate
the machine all you want and just sniff the Net once in a while for
updates.

True, if you cancel the subscription you're out of luck.

---
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From: geoff (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Fri, 05.06.20 11:37
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 5/06/2020 2:53 am, Tobiah wrote:
>> Why do you feel the need change change your computer (a downgrade in
>> this particular  model instance) that may render your current software
>> unusable, or at least complicated to get it to work.
>
> Mostly because it's a Unix system.  I'm a programmer
> by trade, and I spend a lot of time on the command
> line.  I dual boot Linux and live there for anything
> except music.  I banged my heart at Linux audio for
> enough years.  I spent all my time configuring and
> none creating. Also my favorite interface is not
> yet supported.
>
> So I use Cygwin on Windows to get a decent shell,
> but it's a band-aid on a band-aid.  I wanted to
> be on a Unix OS where I'm comfy, with real audio
> support.
>
> Also, a couple of fellow developers at work are
> Mac heads and I've seen them use them for years.
> I found that it looked like an attractive alternative.
>
> Now, I also wanted a seamless audio production
> experience.  I'll take into account some of the comments
> that have been made here.
>
>
>
>
>


Unless you want to use a command-line DAW (?!!!Wink then surely you are
approaching everything from 100% the wrong direction ?!!!

Good that you you do have an open mind though - hope whatever works out
works out for the best.

geoff

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From: geoff (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Fri, 05.06.20 11:39
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 5/06/2020 4:16 am, Tobiah wrote:
>> Apple software is based on a *nix kernel. That's about as close as it
>> gets to being a *nix system, as the UI and other stuff is pure Apple.
>
>  From what I can tell, it's a Unix system with a proprietary kernel,
>  POSIX compliant and certified by The Open Group.  The UI is really
>  just a program that runs in that environment.
>
>  I get bash and all of the Unixy command line tools and it feels
>  like an old pair of blue jeans.

What - grimy, full of holes and a bit faded ?

;- Wink

geoff

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From: geoff (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Fri, 05.06.20 11:50
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 5/06/2020 8:51 am, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Apple software is based on a *nix kernel. That's about as close as it
>> gets to being a *nix system, as the UI and other stuff is pure Apple.
>> The hardware is now mostly Intel based, so you can, in theory, use any
>> x86 compatible operating system.
>
> It's kind of the opposite. Internally, it's based on the Mach microkernel
> which isn't really very Unixlike at all but which offers a Unixlike API.
> What you get with the Apple is the Unix UI, that is to say a real command
> line shell and the Software Tools environment.
>
> Apple has a cheesy GUI on top of this, but you don't have to use the GUI
> for anything other than running your DAW itself. You can stay on the command
> line like a normal computer.

These days a 'normal computer' relies on a command line, or even by
default starts-up to one ?

>
> Now.. Apple has chosen to do some stuff, like managing USB devices, very
> differently than other Unix dialects. If you are used to how NetBSD
> or Linux handle audio streams, OSX does them all differently.
>
>> If what you want is a seamless production environment, take the hit to
>> your wallet and get Protools. It "just works", and projects can be
>> worked on in just about any studio or mastering suite that uses it.


Having grown up on command-lines I really can't see why anybody would
get a stiffy from one.

>
> Protools has -finally- got to the point of just working with Protools 7.
> Before that, you couldn't expect to get out the same data you put in if
> you just loaded a file and didn't edit it but saved it. But the bloat
> set in long before then. Still, we use Protools because that is what
> the customers want.

Brought about largely by cynical restrictive marketing practices and
business tie-ups in the early days of DAWs.

>> Alternatively, many people use the Adobe suite, where the audio and
>> video tools work very well together. It is now "Software As A Service",
>> though, so unless you keep subscribing, it stops working.
>
> And that is a catastrophic problem if your computer is kept completely
> isolated, which any DAW should be.
> --scott
>

Alternatively many people use many other apps too that aren't on a
subscription model, and only update if purposefully connected to the
outside world and updated.

Though Protools, mainly for the previously mentioned reason, remains the
most common 'high-end' solution.

geoff

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From: Tobiah (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Fri, 05.06.20 10:57
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
> Unless you want to use a command-line DAW (?!!!Wink then surely you are
> approaching everything from 100% the wrong direction ?!!!

Not from one direction or the other. I just want both.
Of course I live in the GUI, with browsers and audio
programs open, along with terminal windows.

One way I would like to work, is to write command line
programs that generate MIDI messages that are sent to
a sampler.

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From: Scott Dorsey (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Fri, 05.06.20 18:12
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
In article <rbe11f$im1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Tobiah <toby+news@tobiah.org> wrote:
>
>> Unless you want to use a command-line DAW (?!!!Wink then surely you are
>> approaching everything from 100% the wrong direction ?!!!
>
>Not from one direction or the other. I just want both.
>Of course I live in the GUI, with browsers and audio
>programs open, along with terminal windows.
>
>One way I would like to work, is to write command line
>programs that generate MIDI messages that are sent to
>a sampler.

You need an Atari ST.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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From: Tobiah (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Sat, 06.06.20 07:14
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 6/5/20 3:12 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> In article <rbe11f$im1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Tobiah <toby+news@tobiah.org>
wrote:
>>
>>> Unless you want to use a command-line DAW (?!!!Wink then surely you are
>>> approaching everything from 100% the wrong direction ?!!!
>>
>> Not from one direction or the other. I just want both.
>> Of course I live in the GUI, with browsers and audio
>> programs open, along with terminal windows.
>>
>> One way I would like to work, is to write command line
>> programs that generate MIDI messages that are sent to
>> a sampler.
>
> You need an Atari ST.
> --scott
>

In the mid 80's I was absorbed by a Yamaha CX5M computer.
It had a four operator FM synth module that could be
triggered through hooks in the BASIC language.

That was cookin' with gas. I saved everything
on cassette tape, but didn't know what I was
missing. The first program on the tape would
display an index into tape counter positions
for the other programs. It was the inception
of a file system.

While I'm on nostalgia, had come across a commodore 64
with a printer at a thrift shop. I wanted to print
from the Yamaha, so I used the Yamaha's controllable
cassette motor relay to switch pins of the joystic port
on the commodore. Assembly routines on both ends worked
out a timing code to send the data across and on to
the printer.

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From: geoff (2:221/1.10)
To: All
Date: Sun, 07.06.20 11:21
Re: Keep the Mac or eBay it?
On 7/06/2020 2:14 am, Tobiah wrote:
> On 6/5/20 3:12 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> In article <rbe11f$im1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Tobiah
>> <toby+news@tobiah.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Unless you want to use a command-line DAW (?!!!Wink then surely you are
>>>> approaching everything from 100% the wrong direction ?!!!
>>>
>>> Not from one direction or the other.  I just want both.
>>> Of course I live in the GUI, with browsers and audio
>>> programs open, along with terminal windows.
>>>
>>> One way I would like to work, is to write command line
>>> programs that generate MIDI messages that are sent to
>>> a sampler.
>>
>> You need an Atari ST.
>> --scott
>>
>
> In the mid 80's I was absorbed by a Yamaha CX5M computer.
> It had a four operator FM synth module that could be
> triggered through hooks in the BASIC language.
>
> That was cookin' with gas.  I saved everything
> on cassette tape, but didn't know what I was
> missing.  The first program on the tape would
> display an index into tape counter positions
> for the other programs.  It was the inception
> of a file system.
>
> While I'm on nostalgia, had come across a commodore 64
> with a printer at a thrift shop.  I wanted to print
> from the Yamaha, so I used the Yamaha's controllable
> cassette motor relay to switch pins of the joystic port
> on the commodore.  Assembly routines on both ends worked
> out a timing code to send the data across and on to
> the printer.

I once saw a horse and cart that was really good. Made going shopping in
the city really easy. And that stone tablet was so quick and easy to
inscript, and durable ....

geoff

---
* Origin: rbb soupgate, the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/1.10)

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