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From: Roger Nelson (1:3828/7)
To: All
Date: Tue, 02.04.19 06:57
Taking P4 seriously?




[...]

BF> Unfortunately a bunch of RCs came out of the woodwork and
BF> hijacked our policy change attempt, adding all kinds of more or
BF> less stupid additional changes. Needless to say, it all crashed
BF> miserably, leaving us with the present dinosaur in effect still
BF> today.

Was it as bad as The Hut Sut song?


Regards,

Roger (-:
--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: NCS BBS - Houma, LoUiSiAna - (1:3828/7)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Tue, 02.04.19 14:26
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
BF>WD> We could always have another go at it ... Cool

BF> It's almost 20 years too late. Sad

Just for fun ... A number of the powers that used to be, aren't anymore. Plus
some loudmouthers as well...

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Tue, 02.04.19 10:01
Re: Taking P4 seriously?


BF> Unfortunately a bunch of RCs came out of the woodwork and hijacked our
BF> policy change attempt, adding all kinds of more or less stupid additional
BF> changes. Needless to say, it all crashed miserably, leaving us with the
BF> present dinosaur in effect still today.

Yeah what a damn shame that democracy overcame dictatorship, eh?

WD> We could always have another go at it ... Cool

Wait, aren't you guys that are totally against ANY changes in
FidoNet, NO-MATTER-WHAT?

I guess it's just that you're against any change that *YOU* don't
initiate.



... All hope abandon, ye who enter messages here.
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From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Tue, 02.04.19 19:51
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
DC>WD> We could always have another go at it ... Cool

DC> Wait, aren't you guys that are totally against ANY changes in
DC> FidoNet, NO-MATTER-WHAT?

DC> I guess it's just that you're against any change that *YOU* don't
DC> initiate.

The success, or lack of it, in a Fidonet context has always been decided by
people voting with their feet. They either went one way or they went another
way.

The concept of power related to a coordinator position, and hence the abuse of
such imagined power, is nothing but a figment of your imagination. The higher
the *C is in the hierarchy, the more of a victim he/she is. You don't have to
take my word for it. Just ask your own ZC.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Tue, 02.04.19 23:31
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
BF> What are the chances that the present ZC structure can revive the ZCC
BF> and select an IC (needed as per P4.8.1?

The ZCC does not need reviving as it is 'alive and kicking'. It could just
proceed like that with the election of an IC tomorrow if it so wanted.

Shouldn't take that long. 3 of the 4 ZC are reading here ...

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Tue, 02.04.19 23:37
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
David,

DD>BF> What are the chances that the present ZC structure can revive the
DD>BF> ZCC and select an IC (needed as per P4.8.1?

DD> What would the IC's role be?

Bjorn already said it ... P4.8.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Tue, 02.04.19 20:39
Re: Taking P4 seriously?


BF> What are the chances that the present ZC structure can revive the
BF> ZCC and select an IC (needed as per P4.8.1?

DD> What would the IC's role be?

That is clearly defined in P4.

I thought you knew everything?



... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960
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From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Tue, 02.04.19 21:12
Re: Taking P4 seriously?


DC> Yeah what a damn shame that democracy overcame dictatorship, eh?

BF> Let me see now. The dictators overcame all the grunt sysops
BF> and you call *that* democracy? Figures...

What "figures" is that you selectively snip so the context is
missing. Again. To twist things the way you want them to be.

I won't bother re-quoting what the relevant part is/was, because
you already know.



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From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Tue, 02.04.19 21:16
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
-=> Ward Dossche wrote to Dan Clough <=-

>WD> We could always have another go at it ... Cool

DC> Wait, aren't you guys that are totally against ANY changes in
DC> FidoNet, NO-MATTER-WHAT?

DC> I guess it's just that you're against any change that *YOU* don't
DC> initiate.

WD> The success, or lack of it, in a Fidonet context has always been
WD> decided by people voting with their feet. They either went one
WD> way or they went another way.

WD> The concept of power related to a coordinator position, and hence
WD> the abuse of such imagined power, is nothing but a figment of
WD> your imagination. The higher the *C is in the hierarchy, the more
WD> of a victim he/she is. You don't have to take my word for it.
WD> Just ask your own ZC.

Nothing of what you wrote above does anything to address the
question/statement that I wrote. Just more diversion and
deception, as usual.

<YAWN>



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From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Wed, 03.04.19 07:35
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
DC>WD> The concept of power related to a coordinator position, and hence
DC>WD> the abuse of such imagined power, is nothing but a figment of
DC>WD> your imagination. The higher the *C is in the hierarchy, the more
DC>WD> of a victim he/she is. You don't have to take my word for it.
DC>WD> Just ask your own ZC.

DC> Nothing of what you wrote above does anything to address the
DC> question/statement that I wrote. Just more diversion and
DC> deception, as usual.

You wrote a blanket statement, Dan, just a statement. You didn't demonstrate
anything.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Wed, 03.04.19 07:36
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
BF>BF>> needed as per P4.8.1

BF>DD> What would the IC's role be?

BF> Take a wild guess. Cool

Make certain there's enough beer? Cool

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Wed, 03.04.19 08:59
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
BF>WD> Make certain there's enough beer? Cool

BF> I always have more than enough!

Hmmmm ... is that a challenge ?

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99 SR41
* Origin: Ceci n'est pas un courriel (2:292/854)

From: TERRY ROATI (3:640/1321)
To: All
Date: Wed, 03.04.19 17:45
RE: Taking P4 seriously?
Coin Tosser?

Terry



DD> On 3/04/2019 06:05, 2:203/2 wrote:
WD>>> Just for fun ... A number of the powers that used to be, aren't
WD>>> anymore.
WD>>> Plus some loudmouthers as well...

BF>> OK, let's play.

BF>> What are the chances that the present ZC structure can revive the
BF>> ZCC and select an IC (needed as per P4.8.1?

DD> What would the IC's role be?

DD> --

DD> Gang warily
DD> David

DD> --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101
DD> Thunderbird/31.8.0 * Origin: Bucca, Qld, Australia (3:640/305)

Terry - 3:640/1231 (tfb-bbs.org)

... Platinum Xpress & Wildcat!..... Nice!!!!
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From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Wed, 03.04.19 20:55
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
-=> David Drummond wrote to Dan Clough <=-

BF>> What are the chances that the present ZC structure can revive the
BF>> ZCC and select an IC (needed as per P4.8.1?

DD>> What would the IC's role be?

DC> That is clearly defined in P4.

DD> Only if one has a copy to hand - or do you have the entire
DD> document memorised?

Your logic is quite flawed. Whether one has a copy at hand or not
does not change the fact that the IC's role is clearly defined in
P4, which is what I said. Read what somebody *SAYS*, not what you
think they said, or what helps you twist things up to make a
point.

Another clue that you missed was where Bjorn even stated where the
IC role is discussed in P4 (even though he got the section wrong).

DC> I thought you knew everything?

DD> I guess you're wrong again...

First time for everything...


... He does the work of 3 Men...Moe, Larry & Curly
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From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.04.19 07:53
Re: Taking P4 seriously?
-=> David Drummond wrote to Dan Clough <=-

DD>>> What would the IC's role be?

DC>> That is clearly defined in P4.

DD>> Only if one has a copy to hand - or do you have the entire
DD>> document memorised?

DC> Your logic is quite flawed. Whether one has a copy at hand or not
DC> does not change the fact that the IC's role is clearly defined in
DC> P4, which is what I said.

DD> And if one does not have a copy to hand nor has the document
DD> memorised then how does one know the documented role?

That's a seperate question that was not the topic of discussion.
You seem to have a reading comprehension problem, so I'll try to
lay it out more simply for you:

What you claimed (right there above, since I didn't Bjorn-snip it
out), is that the IC's role is only defined in P4 *IF* one has a copy
of P4 at hand. That is false. The IC's role is clearly defined
in P4 *WHETHER* *OR* *NOT* you have a copy of P4 at hand. See?

DD> If a tree falls over in the forest and no-one witnesses it, did
DD> it make a noise.

Irrelevant diversion attempt noted... the answer is "yes".

DC> Read what somebody *SAYS*, not what you
DC> think they said, or what helps you twist things up to make a
DC> point.

DD> You would well benefit from the same advice.

Could you please point out where I have mis-read what you've said?

DC> Another clue that you missed was where Bjorn even stated where the
DC> IC role is discussed in P4 (even though he got the section wrong).

DD> Read it again = he did have it right.

Nope. Section 8.1 that he references describes how a Policy
change might be initiated.

The *ROLE* of the IC, which is what this whole thread is about
(regardless of the diversion attempts), is described in Section 7.

You're welcome.



... If it weren't for Edison we'd be using computers by candlelight
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From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.04.19 07:58
Re: Taking P4 seriously?


BF>> I never get anything P4-related wrong. That can only lead to one
BF>> conclusion...

DD> Dan was mistaken again.

BF> That would be my conclusion, yes. Cool

You're both wrong, again.

The IC's role is layed out in Section 7. Not in 8.1 as you said.

You're welcome.



... Pros are those who do their jobs well, even when they don't feel like it.
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From: TERRY ROATI (3:640/1321)
To: All
Date: Thu, 04.04.19 21:07
RE: Taking P4 seriously?
Australians throw dice and coins, that's why two up used to be a very popular
method of gaming of throwing 3 coins in the air and betting on the result.

Terry



TR>> Coin Tosser?





BF> ..

BF> --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; sv-SE; rv:1.9.1.16)
BF> Gecko/20101125 * Origin: news://eljaco.se (2:203/2)

Terry - 3:640/1231 (tfb-bbs.org)

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