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From: DAVID WILLIAMS (1:250/514)
To: All
Date: Tue, 13.11.07 19:32
Egyptian power
Most of the electricity in Egypt comes from the Aswan High Dam, which
was constructed in the 1960s, and crosses the Nile in the south of the
country. But only about 2 gigawatts come from it, which is only about
300 watts per Egyptian. More is needed.

About a million square kilometres of the country consists of
sun-drenched desert, ideal for solar power.

But, oh no! They've decided to go nuclear.

They're crazy.

dow
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From: DAVID WILLIAMS (1:250/514)
To: All
Date: Wed, 14.11.07 00:11
Re: Egyptian power
-> No they're not... solar power is very expensive. When all the subsidies and
-> incentives are dropped solar power is 5x as expensive as nuclear power.
->
-> I know the greens would like it different, but the figures don't
lie.

Yes they do, if they aren't calculated right.

Solar-thermal power is cheap, much cheaper than photovoltaic power. All
it needs is a bunch of mirrors and a boiler on a tower. The larger the
scale, the cheaper (per kilowatt) it is.

Nuclear power is expensive, if all the costs are included, such as
sequestering the wastes for hundreds of thousands of years. The bills
for power already used haven't been paid yet.

dow
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* Origin: The Bayman BBS,Toronto, (416)698-6573 - 1:250/514 (1:250/514)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Wed, 14.11.07 02:17
Re: Egyptian power
DW> Most of the electricity in Egypt comes from the Aswan High Dam, which
DW> was constructed in the 1960s, and crosses the Nile in the south of the
DW> country. But only about 2 gigawatts come from it, which is only about
DW> 300 watts per Egyptian. More is needed.

DW> About a million square kilometres of the country consists of
DW> sun-drenched desert, ideal for solar power.

DW> But, oh no! They've decided to go nuclear.

DW> They're crazy.

No they're not... solar power is very expensive. When all the subsidies and
incentives are dropped solar power is 5x as expensive as nuclear power.

I know the greens would like it different, but the figures don't lie.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 2.9
* Origin: Many Glacier -o=O=o- Preserve - Protect - Conserve (2:292/854)

From: DAVID WILLIAMS (1:250/514)
To: All
Date: Wed, 14.11.07 10:42
Re: Egyptian power
-> To have power during the night, you need a technology to store the warmth fo

-> electricity production during the night using that warmth ... we're talking
-> massive storage of warmth ...

The strange thing about the Egyptian desert is that in many areas there
is abundant water. Lakes exist among the sand-dunes! It's a geological
rift zone, with depressions that go down below sea lavel. A few million
years ago, there were active volcanoes. There are still plenty of
springs, many of them hot.

So there's abundant sunshine and enough water to form the basis for an
large hydrogen-producing industry. Sure, the sun shines only during the
day, but hydrogen can easily be stored, distributed by pipes, and
exported. The Icelanders are doing this with hydrogen they make using
geothermal and hydro-electric energy. The Egyptians (and others) could
do the same with solar energy.

But Egypt is ruled by a man who is nearly 80, and who has been in power
for more than 25 years. The government is massively corrupt, and lacks
the will to do anything except stay in power. Huge military spending
consumes most of the budget. Imaginative schemes that could greatly
improve the country exist, but are left uncompleted because of lack of
money. Developing solar power would be relatively cheap compared with
digging a canal through the western desert from Lake Nasser to the
Mediterranean, effectively making a second Nile river. This scheme has
been started, but is currently abandoned, the canal partly dug. If the
resources that were spant on it had been spent on solar energy instead,
Egypt would be rich in energy.

dow
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
* Origin: The Bayman BBS,Toronto, (416)698-6573 - 1:250/514 (1:250/514)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Wed, 14.11.07 11:24
Re: Egyptian power
DW> Solar-thermal power is cheap, much cheaper than photovoltaic power. All
DW> it needs is a bunch of mirrors and a boiler on a tower. The larger the
DW> scale, the cheaper (per kilowatt) it is.

During the day.

To have power during the night, you need a technology to store the warmth for
electricity production during the night using that warmth ... we're talking
massive storage of warmth ...

"That" is what makes it unaffordable and super-expensive ... as I said, take
away the subsidies and other economic incentives then this technology is 5X as
expensive as nuclear power ... and that includes the storing of spent material
for time-frames as you indicate.

If it were really that cheap, the technology would already be used all over the
globe, these are the simple laws of economics.

Don't take me as an ignorant on this, I don't go by slogans. Some while ago I
was involved in a mega-project in Spain as you describe ... the results are:
too expensive during the night and as a result overal too expensive.

The main challenge is to get our consumption of wattage down which on a global
scale is impossible with large portions of the Far East still having to come
on-line. We're on an energy roller-coaster and "green" energy is still way too
young and too unproductive to be a viable alternative.

It doesn't provide solutions [yet] for the "now" at the scale we need them
[now].

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 2.9
* Origin: Many Glacier -o=O=o- Preserve - Protect - Conserve (2:292/854)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Wed, 14.11.07 23:24
Re: Egyptian power
BF> In Greece every house have solar panels on the roof + a accumulator tank.

Of course ... 4/5 paid for by EU subventions ...

There is not a single example of solar energy you can pull which does not
royally draw on subventions.

Take away the subventions and the subsidies and it becomes uninteresting.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 2.9
* Origin: Many Glacier -o=O=o- Preserve - Protect - Conserve (2:292/854)

From: DAVID WILLIAMS (1:250/514)
To: All
Date: Thu, 15.11.07 11:23
Re: Egyptian power
-> There is not a single example of solar energy you can pull which does not
-> royally draw on subventions.
->
-> Take away the subventions and the subsidies and it becomes
uninteresting.

Nonsense. I know of plenty of people who heat water in summertime with
solar heat, especially for applications such as swimming pools. They
just run the water through a dark-coloured hose laid on the ground. No
government funding is involved.

dow
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
* Origin: The Bayman BBS,Toronto, (416)698-6573 - 1:250/514 (1:250/514)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Thu, 15.11.07 13:35
Re: Egyptian power
BF>WD> There is not a single example of solar energy you can pull which
BF> does not
BF>WD> royally draw on subventions.

BF> And you know that exactly how?

Every government has a budget. It's in-there.

You can also discover that kind of subsidies in EU-budgets, sometimes in plain
text.

Sometimes it's a clear subsidy, sometimes it's a hidden-one by tax-deductions.
It takes some searching to find it.

Unfortunately a number of EU/EC-documents are not available for free, but they
are freely available.

Same with the publications of the EEA in Copenhagen (European Environmental
Agency). For example they recently released a document called "Europe's
Environment - The Fourth Assessment". Freely available at a cost of 50 Euro.

Every so many years there is such an assessment as a follow-up of the 1991
Dobris-conference (thatone's Google-able), where I was part of the national
delegation. That, in part, answers your stement/question below.

BF>WD> Take away the subventions and the subsidies and it becomes
BF> uninteresting.

BF> Of course, you always knows the best.

I will try to make you feel less bad about that in future. May I suggest some
"Wortegemsen"? [http://www.wortegemsen.be tere is an English page]

Ward

--- D'Bridge 2.9
* Origin: Many Glacier -o=O=o- Preserve - Protect - Conserve (2:292/854)

From: DAVID WILLIAMS (1:250/514)
To: All
Date: Thu, 15.11.07 18:26
Re: Egyptian power
-> DW> -> There is not a single example of solar energy you can pull which does

-> DW> not
-> DW> -> royally draw on subventions.
-> DW> ->
-> DW> -> Take away the subventions and the subsidies and it becomes
-> DW> uninteresting.
->
-> DW> Nonsense. I know of plenty of people who heat water in summertime with
-> DW> solar heat, especially for applications such as swimming pools. They
-> DW> just run the water through a dark-coloured hose laid on the ground. No
-> DW> government funding is involved.
->
-> You seem to not distinguish between "heating" to temperatures high enough, a

-> being able to sustain enough of that heat for 12-14 hours continuous, in ord

-> to drive turbines producing a couple of hundred megawatt for up to 14 hours
-> solid without any additional energy being added to the process ... and
-> "warming" the water of a swimming pool to make it cozy enough to
swim.

Warming water requires energy. If the energy comes from the sun, then
it's an application of solar energy. You said that there are no viable
applications of solar energy. You were wrong.

There are situations in which electricity produced from sunlight is
economically preferable to other sources. In Egypt, there are
cell-phone sites along the highways, even out in the desert. Being able
to call for help can be a life-saver out there. The sites are powered
by big photovoltaic panels. Presumably, there are storage batteries for
night. PV is cheaper than running hundreds of kilometres of wire.

It is true that producing large quantities of electricity with PV is
more expensive than nuclear power - at least, it is at present. But
other factors can enter the overall calculation, making PV (and
solar-thermal power) economically preferable.

dow
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
* Origin: The Bayman BBS,Toronto, (416)698-6573 - 1:250/514 (1:250/514)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Thu, 15.11.07 18:55
Re: Egyptian power
DW> -> There is not a single example of solar energy you can pull which does
DW> not
DW> -> royally draw on subventions.
DW> ->
DW> -> Take away the subventions and the subsidies and it becomes
DW> uninteresting.

DW> Nonsense. I know of plenty of people who heat water in summertime with
DW> solar heat, especially for applications such as swimming pools. They
DW> just run the water through a dark-coloured hose laid on the ground. No
DW> government funding is involved.

You seem to not distinguish between "heating" to temperatures high enough, and
being able to sustain enough of that heat for 12-14 hours continuous, in order
to drive turbines producing a couple of hundred megawatt for up to 14 hours
solid without any additional energy being added to the process ... and
"warming" the water of a swimming pool to make it cozy enough to swim.

There is a world of a difference between "generating energy" and "warming-up a
swimming pool".

You know perfectly will the former is the discussion-item on hand while the
latter is the typical smokescreen in a Fido-discussion.

Take care,

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 2.9
* Origin: Many Glacier -o=O=o- Preserve - Protect - Conserve (2:292/854)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Fri, 16.11.07 01:09
Re: Egyptian power
David,

DW> Warming water requires energy. If the energy comes from the sun, then
DW> it's an application of solar energy. You said that there are no viable
DW> applications of solar energy. You were wrong.

That is wordplay ... the discussion centered around generating energy,
obviously generating electricity. Not warming the water of a swimming-pool.

DW> There are situations in which electricity produced from sunlight is
DW> economically preferable to other sources. In Egypt, there are
DW> cell-phone sites along the highways, even out in the desert.

You do not need to go that far, I've seen such sites all over North America and
in Europe, which proves nothing.

DW> It is true that producing large quantities of electricity with PV is
DW> more expensive than nuclear power ...

Actually, it is fu***ng more expensive to point of being impossible. Not just
the cost but also the potential of polution during the production of PV cells.
PV-cells cannot be used economically without government incentives.

DW> But other factors can enter the overall calculation, making PV (and
DW> solar-thermal power) economically preferable.

PV cells cannot produce the kind of power needed by a city. Solar thermal can't
either, no way to store enough heat long enough to run turbines during the
night. Storing those amounts of electricity in batteries does not work, that
kind of battery simply does not and for the time being cannot exist.

The latest solar-thermal mega-project in Spain funded by the EU was a terrible
failure. Worked perfect during the day, but died after sundown because the heat
could not be conserved.

Take care,

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 2.9
* Origin: Many Glacier -o=O=o- Preserve - Protect - Conserve (2:292/854)

From: Ward Dossche (2:292/854)
To: All
Date: Fri, 16.11.07 10:47
Re: Egyptian power
DW> But Egypt is ruled by a man who is nearly 80, and who has been in power
DW> for more than 25 years. The government is massively corrupt, and lacks
DW> the will to do anything except stay in power. Huge military spending
DW> consumes most of the budget. Imaginative schemes that could greatly
DW> improve the country exist, but are left uncompleted because of lack of
DW> money.

Etc...

It's the curse of many African countries, and of some beyond.

Being from Belgium I know the case of the Congo very well which should be one
of the wealthiest countries in the world due to the minerals and diamonds.

Alas, there has never ever been a stable government since independance in 1960
and even if it were, all the richness is owned by a few large corporations.
Profits do not flow back to the country to improve the situation of the locals,
the money dissappears to foreign bank accounts as well as in the pockets of
corrupt local leaders and equally corrupt UN officers.

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 2.9
* Origin: Many Glacier -o=O=o- Preserve - Protect - Conserve (2:292/854)

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