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From: Richard Falken (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Sat, 02.01.21 19:52
Great!
Re: Great!
By: bebyx to Richard Menedetter on Sun Jan 03 2021 01:28 am

> Hi, Richard.
> On 02.01.21 21:59 you wrote:
>
> RM> Hi bebyx! 02 Jan 2021 22:11, from bebyx -> All:
> be>> Is this group alive?
> RM> I am reading it ;) CU, Ricsi ... If you find a path with no
> RM> obstacles it probably doesn't lead anywhere. --- GoldED+/LNX *
> RM> Origin: Brevity is the soul of wit. (2:310/31)
> That's great!
>
> I use Debian and Gentoo. Looking forward to meaningful discussion.
>
> --
> Regards

OK for meaningful conversation.

I am waiting for Patrick to release Slackware 15. The wait is getting
ridiculous at this point.

I am also toying a lot with Tiny Core Linux. I like the project but they do
need better infrastructure. When I see core developers of the distro use gmail
addresses instead of one tied to Tiny Core I go yucks.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
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* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

From: Aaron Thomas (1:275/99)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 01:35
Re: Great!
be> I use Debian and Gentoo. Looking forward to meaningful discussion.

I've heard that Debian is more "stable" than Ubuntu, but what is meant by
that? I haven't had any issues with Ubuntu crashing, and I've used what feels
like a ton of software with it.

I'm interested in Debian because I'm assuming it's lighter and faster than
Ubuntu, but I'm reluctant because I'm concerned about compatibility when I
move files from an Ubuntu machine to a Debian one. Should that be a concern?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
* Origin: CompuBBS | Ashburn VA | cfbbs.scinet-ftn.org (1:275/99)

From: Alan Ianson (1:153/757.2)
To: All
Date: Sat, 02.01.21 21:47
Re: Great!
Re: Re: Great!
By: Aaron Thomas to bebyx on Sun Jan 03 2021 12:35 am

AT> I've heard that Debian is more "stable" than Ubuntu, but what is meant by
AT> that? I haven't had any issues with Ubuntu crashing, and I've used what
AT> feels like a ton of software with it.

Debian stable is very stable. The software in there got plenty of testing
before release but it can be old (by some standards) by the time it is released
or soon after.

There is also the testing and unstable branches of debian. If I were to run
debian myself I would run a mix of testing and unstable on my desktop. If
stability is a concern then stable is what you want.

AT> I'm interested in Debian because I'm assuming it's lighter and faster than
AT> Ubuntu, but I'm reluctant because I'm concerned about compatibility when I
AT> move files from an Ubuntu machine to a Debian one. Should that be a
AT> concern?

I have no issues moving files around, I use ext4 file systems mostly. I have
small partitions for the OS and large ones for files that I can read/write
regardless of the OS I am running ATM.

Ttyl Smile,
Al

... Hindsight is an exact science
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757.2)

From: bebyx (2:467/888.57)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 11:33
Re: Great!
Hello, Aaron Thomas.
On 03.01.21 00:35 you wrote:

be>> I use Debian and Gentoo. Looking forward to meaningful
be>> discussion.
AT> I've heard that Debian is more "stable" than Ubuntu, but what is
AT> meant by that? I haven't had any issues with Ubuntu crashing, and
AT> I've used what feels like a ton of software with it.

The first thing I'm thinking of when I hear about stable Debian vs unstable
Ubuntu is that I always had problems when I tried to upgrade Ubuntu version.
Actually it just won't update and it crashed, so I had to reinstall Ubuntu
(just like Windows).

In Debian, dist-upgrade works just fine. So far, I use sid for a year and feel
it like more stable than Ubuntu.

AT> I'm interested in Debian because I'm assuming it's lighter and
AT> faster than Ubuntu, but I'm reluctant because I'm concerned about
AT> compatibility when I move files from an Ubuntu machine to a Debian
AT> one. Should that be a concern?

Well, Debian is definitely lighter, because it doesn't have extras implemented
by Canonical in Ubuntu by default like snap-crap and so on.

I don't think there should be any file compatibility issues if we are talking
about storage. If both have ext4 you are good to go (maybe, different file
systems are also fine, but I cannot guarantee since I never tested that). I
exchange files regularly between my Debian and Gentoo laptops (both ext4) 
it's more than compatible.

AT> --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64) * Origin: CompuBBS
AT> | Ashburn VA | cfbbs.scinet-ftn.org (1:275/99)

--
Regards
--- Hotdoged/2.13.5/Android
* Origin: Android device, Milky Way (2:467/888.57)

From: Richard Falken (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 05:57
Re: Great!
Re: Re: Great!
By: Aaron Thomas to bebyx on Sun Jan 03 2021 12:35 am

> be> I use Debian and Gentoo. Looking forward to meaningful discussion.
>
> I've heard that Debian is more "stable" than Ubuntu, but what is meant by
> that? I haven't had any issues with Ubuntu crashing, and I've used what feel
> like a ton of software with it.
>
> I'm interested in Debian because I'm assuming it's lighter and faster than
> Ubuntu, but I'm reluctant because I'm concerned about compatibility when I
> move files from an Ubuntu machine to a Debian one. Should that be a concern?

Back in 2008 Ubuntu's quality control was not great. You could expect lots of
packages in the repository to have bugs, and things not to work well once you
stepped out of the default settings. Things have greatly improved since.

Debian is stable in the sense that you can expect no API breakage within a
release... if Debian 23 ships with a package called mySoftware, you know that
such package has been in the testing repository for a number of years before
making it to stable. Also, if mySoftware needs a security fix or a critical
patch, such fix will be backported in a way that does not break your operating
system configuration - as opposed to other distributions, in which software may
be updated in ways that need you to manually reconfigure things.

Migrating from Debian to Ubuntu and the other way around sounds hassle-free to
me. That said, if you are hapyp with your current setup, I would not change
it... if you want to experiment with different distributions, get a spare
computer or set a virtual machie instead.
--
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From: Gerrit Kuehn (2:240/12)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 11:25
Re: Great!
Hello Aaron!

03 Jan 21 00:35, Aaron Thomas wrote to bebyx:

AT> I've heard that Debian is more "stable" than Ubuntu, but what is
AT> meant by that?

A long time ago (just increase the year and software version numbers below, and
it'll probably still work these days ;-) there was a saying like

---
Debian comes in three flavours: stale, rusting and broken. These are renamed
once or twice per decade. Right now, "rusting" is actually already "stale", but
it cannot be released officially before 2004 because gnome2 and kde3 are not
sufficiently outdated yet, and a dysfunctional version of inn is missing for
"broken".
---


Regards,
Gerrit

... 10:25AM up 74 days, 21:26, 8 users, load averages: 0.34, 0.28, 0.25

--- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
* Origin: We're telling tales of communication (2:240/12)

From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 10:30
Re: Great!
-=> Richard Falken wrote to bebyx <=-

> I use Debian and Gentoo. Looking forward to meaningful discussion.

RF> OK for meaningful conversation.

RF> I am waiting for Patrick to release Slackware 15. The wait is
RF> getting ridiculous at this point.

Agreed. In fact it's well beyond ridiculous. I am actually starting
to think about jumping ship to something else, which pains me.

RF> I am also toying a lot with Tiny Core Linux. I like the project
RF> but they do need better infrastructure. When I see core
RF> developers of the distro use gmail addresses instead of one tied
RF> to Tiny Core I go yucks.

Haven't tried that one. If I do switch it'll likely be to something
either Debian or Arch based, or actual straight Debian. Right now I'm
liking MX Linux and Manjaro pretty well. Still wondering if I want to
deal with systemd though. Maybe Patrick will finally do it soon.



... Clones are people two.
=== MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

From: Aaron Thomas (1:275/99)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 08:52
Re: Great!
AI> Debian stable is very stable. The software in there got plenty of testing
AI> before release but it can be old (by some standards) by the time it is
AI> released or soon after.

That makes sense. I just had no idea what they meant. Is a horse's stable
"stable?" lol

AI> I have no issues moving files around, I use ext4 file systems mostly. I
AI> have small partitions for the OS and large ones for files that I can
AI> read/write regardless of the OS I am running ATM.

But I mean, suppose I move my Mystic BBS from an Ubuntu 18.04 rack server to a
home computer running Debian - do you think Mystic would work without skipping
a beat?

I do some other stuff besides run Mystic, but that's the main concern at the
moment.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
* Origin: CompuBBS | Ashburn VA | cfbbs.scinet-ftn.org (1:275/99)

From: Alan Ianson (1:153/757.2)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 09:12
Re: Great!
Re: Re: Great!
By: Aaron Thomas to Alan Ianson on Sun Jan 03 2021 07:52 am

AT> But I mean, suppose I move my Mystic BBS from an Ubuntu 18.04 rack server
AT> to a home computer running Debian - do you think Mystic would work without
AT> skipping a beat?

Yes, just zip it up and copy it to your new server and unzip it.. no worries.

Ttyl Smile,
Al

... Old MacDonald had a computer, with EIA I/O...
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (1:153/757.2)

From: Richard Falken (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 14:00
Re: Great!
Re: Re: Great!
By: Dan Clough to Richard Falken on Sun Jan 03 2021 09:30 am

> Haven't tried that one. If I do switch it'll likely be to something
> either Debian or Arch based, or actual straight Debian. Right now I'm
> liking MX Linux and Manjaro pretty well. Still wondering if I want to
> deal with systemd though. Maybe Patrick will finally do it soon.

Word is that Slackware -current is going to hit Release Candidate soon (based
on a bunch of packages that have been included recently, including some modern
KDE stuff). If that is the case, we could have Slackware 15 in mid 2021.

I am keeping Slackware on every machine that does not need upgrading, and
migrating everything else to OpenBSD. My problem is what to do if I need to
migrate something specifically to Linux... Devuan could do the trick, but I am
not a fan of Debian and derivatives. Gentoo is just too time consuming to set
up.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 15:39
Re: Great!
-=> Richard Falken wrote to Dan Clough <=-

> Haven't tried that one. If I do switch it'll likely be to something
> either Debian or Arch based, or actual straight Debian. Right now I'm
> liking MX Linux and Manjaro pretty well. Still wondering if I want to
> deal with systemd though. Maybe Patrick will finally do it soon.

RF> Word is that Slackware -current is going to hit Release Candidate
RF> soon (based on a bunch of packages that have been included
RF> recently, including some modern KDE stuff). If that is the case,
RF> we could have Slackware 15 in mid 2021.

Yes, I think that sounds about right. I watch the changelog closely
and am thinking the same thing. Hope we're right.

RF> I am keeping Slackware on every machine that does not need
RF> upgrading, and migrating everything else to OpenBSD. My problem
RF> is what to do if I need to migrate something specifically to
RF> Linux... Devuan could do the trick, but I am not a fan of Debian
RF> and derivatives. Gentoo is just too time consuming to set up.

I didn't use to like Debian but it has grown on me over the years. If
not for the pesky systemd I'd probably already be there. Straight
Arch Linux is pretty good too, but takes some effort to get done,
kinda like Gentoo does. Has GREAT documentation though, and an
excellent package management system. I dabbled with FreeBSD years ago
but found it too different than what I was used to, and lacked the
motivation to learn about it. Will probably give it another try at
some point. Haven't ever tried the other BSD's (Open/Net).



... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
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From: Gerrit Kuehn (2:240/12)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 22:13
Re: Great!
Hello Richard!

03 Jan 21 13:00, Richard Falken wrote to Dan Clough:

RF> but I am
RF> not a fan of Debian and derivatives. Gentoo is just too time
RF> consuming to set
RF> up.

Gentoo setup can be sped up by using orchestration tools, but I see your point.
I've been using Sabayon Linux in these cases (Gentoo with installer and binary
packages). However, they are rebranding the project these days, so I wouldn't
use it for new installations.
Their new Mocaccino OS is joined by Funtoo folks. Don't know how long they'll
take to get this new beast production-ready, but it certainly looks like
interesting technology to me:
http://www.sabayon.org/article/joining-funtoo/
http://www.sabayon.org/article/sabayon-is-rebranding/
https://www.mocaccino.org/


Regards,
Gerrit

... 9:13PM up 75 days, 8:14, 8 users, load averages: 0.29, 0.29, 0.25

--- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
* Origin: And the pastiche we've invented (2:240/12)

From: Aaron Thomas (1:275/99)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 18:58
Re: Great!
be> unstable Ubuntu is that I always had problems when I tried to upgrade
be> Ubuntu version. Actually it just won't update and it crashed, so I had
be> to reinstall Ubuntu (just like Windows).

Come to think of it, I did have a similar problem when I upgraded from Ubuntu
18.04 to 20.04 LTS. So then I ended up having to re-install all my junk
afterwards which was not a smooth transition.

be> talking about storage. If both have ext4 you are good to go (maybe,

With that being said, it sounds like it might work. I run my BBS on a VPS that
only allows me to choose between Ubuntu (a few versions) and CentOS (which is
not something I want to try out.Wink I often compress the BBS & download it so I
can work on it on my local machine, then I upload it back to the VPS when I'm
done. I've assumed that both machines need to have the same OS, but like you
said - if they have the same file system, it might be just fine.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
* Origin: CompuBBS | Ashburn VA | cfbbs.scinet-ftn.org (1:275/99)

From: Aaron Thomas (1:275/99)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 19:38
Re: Great!
RM> It usually comes down to preference.

It will be interesting to give it a try. I'll try it on my old 32 bit pc to
see if it feels right or not.

RM> They try to shove snap down our throats with great force ... do not like
RM> that!

But you don't really have to use it, do you? I'm using KDE, and the "Discover
Software Center" seems sort of a like a joke. (KDE is cool, but not Discover.Wink
I've never found anything in there that I was looking for except for a
particular date widget that I like.

I've found Snap to be more helpful. Snap was the only way (that I could find)
to install Android Studio.

RM> What do you mean by moving files? (binaries, or documents or what??Wink
RM> What sort of compatibility concerns do you have?

My concern was copying my Mystic BBS from an Ubuntu machine to a Debian
machine, so I could work on it locally, then copying it back to the Ubuntu
machine when finished - and being able to run it without any hickups.

But like bebyx said, if they're both using an ext3 file system, it seems likely
to work fine. I'll post back here after I try it.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
* Origin: CompuBBS | Ashburn VA | cfbbs.scinet-ftn.org (1:275/99)

From: Aaron Thomas (1:275/99)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 19:52
Re: Great!
RF> hassle-free to me. That said, if you are hapyp with your current setup,
RF> I would not change it... if you want to experiment with different
RF> distributions, get a spare computer or set a virtual machie instead.

That sounds like a good plan to me. Ubuntu has been good to me.

I used Mint for several years, but then when they released Mint 20, I loved
the new look and everything, but I was no longer able to get my printer
working (and it's an awesome printer) so I reverted to Ubuntu 20.01 LTS and
things have never been better! I paired it with KDE & I love it.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
* Origin: CompuBBS | Ashburn VA | cfbbs.scinet-ftn.org (1:275/99)

From: Aaron Thomas (1:275/99)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 19:58
Re: Great!
GK> Debian comes in three flavours: stale, rusting and broken. These are

Stale has always been my style! Installing updates should never be a high
priority, at least not outside of business applicatons.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
* Origin: CompuBBS | Ashburn VA | cfbbs.scinet-ftn.org (1:275/99)

From: Richard Falken (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 19:15
Re: Great!
Re: Re: Great!
By: Dan Clough to Richard Falken on Sun Jan 03 2021 02:39 pm

> I didn't use to like Debian but it has grown on me over the years. If
> not for the pesky systemd I'd probably already be there. Straight
> Arch Linux is pretty good too, but takes some effort to get done,
> kinda like Gentoo does. Has GREAT documentation though, and an
> excellent package management system. I dabbled with FreeBSD years ago
> but found it too different than what I was used to, and lacked the
> motivation to learn about it. Will probably give it another try at
> some point. Haven't ever tried the other BSD's (Open/Net).

Nowadays I don't feel like using anything that lacks a ports system, unless it
is for trivial tasks. Being able to automatically compile your software against
any library you see fit, instead of having to keep the libraries the packagers
have decided you must use, solves a lot of problems. This is what I end up
missing the most with Devuan and friends. I still install lots of Devuans for
relatives, though.

My issue with FreeBSD is precisely that it feels so much like Linux Razz NetBSD
and OpenBSD are pretty much their own thing. I like OpenBSD because the
operating system is much better organized, but you are in for a lot of man page
reading.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

From: Richard Falken (1:123/115)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 19:28
Re: Great!
Re: Re: Great!
By: Gerrit Kuehn to Richard Falken on Sun Jan 03 2021 09:13 pm

> Hello Richard!
>
> 03 Jan 21 13:00, Richard Falken wrote to Dan Clough:
>
> RF> but I am
> RF> not a fan of Debian and derivatives. Gentoo is just too time
> RF> consuming to set
> RF> up.
>
> Gentoo setup can be sped up by using orchestration tools, but I see your poi
> I've been using Sabayon Linux in these cases (Gentoo with installer and bina
> packages). However, they are rebranding the project these days, so I wouldn'
> use it for new installations.
> Their new Mocaccino OS is joined by Funtoo folks. Don't know how long they'l
> take to get this new beast production-ready, but it certainly looks like
> interesting technology to me:
> http://www.sabayon.org/article/joining-funtoo/
> http://www.sabayon.org/article/sabayon-is-rebranding/
> https://www.mocaccino.org/
>
>
> Regards,
> Gerrit
>
> ... 9:13PM up 75 days, 8:14, 8 users, load averages: 0.29, 0.29, 0.25

Thanks for dropping by.

I am aware of Sabayon and Funtoo, but Mocaccino was under my radar.

My main concern with source based distributions is running them in adverse
conditions - places with no Internet, bad Internet, or limited data plans.
Specially if you have fleets of machines in office. Imagine if you have an
office with 20 computers and a data plan that tops at 5 GB for all of them.
Hint: this is not a theoretical scenario.

You can use build hosts in and out of premises, but setting these things up
can be such a burden Sad Specially if your computer fleet is not homogeneous.

What I like of Slackware is that the core system is binary, so you can get your
upgrades to the base system out of the premises with limited Internet and bring
them in with a pen drive. Building your own packages home for unofficial pkgs
and taking them into office is also trivial. Same goes for OpenBSD - which also
offers binary builds for the popular software in the ports tree anyway.

Most Linux distributions are not designed for offline use, which can be really
troublesome.


--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)

From: Bbsing Bbs (1:227/201)
To: All
Date: Sun, 03.01.21 20:59
Re: Great!
Re: Re: Great!
By: Aaron Thomas to bebyx on Sun Jan 03 2021 05:58 pm

> be> unstable Ubuntu is that I always had problems when I tried to upgrade
Ubuntu version. Actually it just won't update and it
> be> crashed, so I had
> be> to reinstall Ubuntu (just like Windows).
>
> Come to think of it, I did have a similar problem when I upgraded from
Ubuntu 18.04 to 20.04 LTS. So then I ended up having to
> re-install all my junk afterwards which was not a smooth transition.
>
> be> talking about storage. If both have ext4 you are good to go (maybe,
>
> With that being said, it sounds like it might work. I run my BBS on a VPS
that only allows me to choose between Ubuntu (a few
> versions) and CentOS (which is not something I want to try out.Wink I often
compress the BBS & download it so I can work on it on m
> local machine, then I upload it back to the VPS when I'm done. I've assumed
that both machines need to have the same OS, but lik
> you said - if they have the same file system, it might be just fine.

I started to have problems with the unstable release upgrade of 19.10. I
generally use CLI interface.
When not using a 32 bit version (that hasn't be around for awhile now) a simple
command like:
do-release-upgrade

usually works pretty good to get to the stable next release. I've tried other
methods but nothing worked.
My last upgrade from 19.10 with zfs took awhile.

I have another system I support that started as a Kubuntu 18.something, and a
monkey operator upgraded it to ubuntu 19.10. Then the
same monkey operator tried to upgrade it to 20.04 but ... it got stuck. I
haven't had the desire to unwind it yet to fix it.

The system is a baremetal system too.
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: Electronic Warfare BBS | telnet:\\bbs.ewbbs.net (1:227/201)

From: Aaron Thomas (1:275/99)
To: All
Date: Mon, 04.01.21 06:15
Re: Great!
AI> AT> But I mean, suppose I move my Mystic BBS from an Ubuntu 18.04 rack se
AI> AT> to a home computer running Debian - do you think Mystic would work wi
AI> AT> skipping a beat?
AI>
AI> Yes, just zip it up and copy it to your new server and unzip it.. no
AI> worries.

Do you think that would be fine accross most distros provided that they're all
using an ext3 file system?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/64)
* Origin: CompuBBS | Ashburn VA | cfbbs.scinet-ftn.org (1:275/99)

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