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From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: n/a
Date: Sun, 13.09.20 23:27
Slackware 15.0
Hello all,

Anybody else use Slackware...? Are you as tired as I am of
waiting for a new release? It's starting to get ridiculous.

Yeah, I know I could switch to something else, but I don't want
to. Just wish he'd hurry things up a bit, it's been over 4 years
now. Arrrgggghhhhhh.



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From: Nick Andre (1:229/426)
To: n/a
Date: Mon, 14.09.20 00:33
Re: Slackware 15.0
On 13 Sep 20 21:27:00, Dan Clough said the following to All:

DC> Anybody else use Slackware...? Are you as tired as I am of
DC> waiting for a new release? It's starting to get ridiculous.

Is Slackware the one that doesn't have systemd?

Nick

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* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

From: Richard Falken (1:123/115)
To: n/a
Date: Mon, 14.09.20 05:14
Re: Slackware 15.0
Re: Re: Slackware 15.0
By: Nick Andre to Dan Clough on Sun Sep 13 2020 10:33 pm

> On 13 Sep 20 21:27:00, Dan Clough said the following to All:
>
> DC> Anybody else use Slackware...? Are you as tired as I am of
> DC> waiting for a new release? It's starting to get ridiculous.
>
> Is Slackware the one that doesn't have systemd?
>
> Nick

There are more Linux distributions that don't carry systemd besides Slackware.

Devuan and Gentoo are the two big ones that come to mind, but there are also
small ones (such as Tiny Core Linux). Knoppix has SystemD but does not use it
as an init system. Knopper is very vocal about SystemD messing up his tidy
distro Razz

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From: Benny Pedersen (2:230/0)
To: n/a
Date: Mon, 14.09.20 10:48
Re: Slackware 15.0
Hello Nick!

13 Sep 2020 22:33, Nick Andre wrote to Dan Clough:

NA> On 13 Sep 20 21:27:00, Dan Clough said the following to All:

DC>> Anybody else use Slackware...? Are you as tired as I am of
DC>> waiting for a new release? It's starting to get ridiculous.

NA> Is Slackware the one that doesn't have systemd?

gentoo have it default disabled in kernel, but if users or even admins want the
trouble it can be enabled, is slackware the one that miss portage from gentoo ?


Regards Benny

... there can only be one way of life, and it works Smile

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/5.8.9-gentoo-x86_64 (x86_64)Wink
* Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)

From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: n/a
Date: Mon, 14.09.20 09:27
Re: Slackware 15.0
-=> Nick Andre wrote to Dan Clough <=-

DC> Anybody else use Slackware...? Are you as tired as I am of
DC> waiting for a new release? It's starting to get ridiculous.

NA> Is Slackware the one that doesn't have systemd?

That is correct, it is one of the few. Another that I know of is
"MX Linux" which is quite nice, and a fork of Debian called
"Devuan", which I have heard mixed reviews about.



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From: Richard Falken (1:123/115)
To: n/a
Date: Mon, 14.09.20 12:31
Re: Slackware 15.0
Re: Re: Slackware 15.0
By: Dan Clough to Nick Andre on Mon Sep 14 2020 07:27 am

> -=> Nick Andre wrote to Dan Clough <=-
>
> DC> Anybody else use Slackware...? Are you as tired as I am of
> DC> waiting for a new release? It's starting to get ridiculous.
>
> NA> Is Slackware the one that doesn't have systemd?
>
> That is correct, it is one of the few. Another that I know of is
> "MX Linux" which is quite nice, and a fork of Debian called
> "Devuan", which I have heard mixed reviews about.
>
>
>
> ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.

I think MX linux has ystemD, but you make me doubt.

Devuan is quite ok. It is what I use when I need a Debian-like environment,
which is not very often. Still I prefer Slackware. I have been booting some
OpenBSD systems as of late though.

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From: Nick Andre (1:229/426)
To: n/a
Date: Mon, 14.09.20 13:52
Re: Slackware 15.0
On 14 Sep 20 03:14:08, Richard Falken said the following to Nick Andre:

RF> There are more Linux distributions that don't carry systemd besides Slackwa
RF>
RF> Devuan and Gentoo are the two big ones that come to mind, but there are als
RF> small ones (such as Tiny Core Linux). Knoppix has SystemD but does not use
RF> as an init system. Knopper is very vocal about SystemD messing up his tidy
RF> distro Razz

I only work with Linux / BSD systems occasionally. I was curious because the
last time I worked with Slackware it was pretty "clean" as it was; guys I knew
used to complain loudly about the many wonderful problems of systemd.

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

From: Nick Andre (1:229/426)
To: n/a
Date: Mon, 14.09.20 13:54
Re: Slackware 15.0
On 14 Sep 20 08:48:38, Benny Pedersen said the following to Nick Andre:

BP> gentoo have it default disabled in kernel, but if users or even admins want
BP> the trouble it can be enabled, is slackware the one that miss portage from
BP> gentoo ?

I messed around with Gentoo only once, about like 15 years ago. Seemed like
it was really meant for sadomasochists Cool

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: n/a
Date: Mon, 14.09.20 23:53
Re: Slackware 15.0
-=> Richard Falken wrote to Dan Clough <=-

> DC> Anybody else use Slackware...? Are you as tired as I am of
> DC> waiting for a new release? It's starting to get ridiculous.

> NA> Is Slackware the one that doesn't have systemd?

> That is correct, it is one of the few. Another that I know of is
> "MX Linux" which is quite nice, and a fork of Debian called
> "Devuan", which I have heard mixed reviews about.

RF> I think MX linux has ystemD, but you make me doubt.

Nope, it definitely doesn't. I've got it running on the wife's
laptop. You can see the details here: (scroll down a bit to the
"init software" line):

https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mx

RF> Devuan is quite ok. It is what I use when I need a Debian-like
RF> environment, which is not very often. Still I prefer Slackware. I
RF> have been booting some OpenBSD systems as of late though.

I may give it (Devuan) another look one of these days. I do like
Debian and it's offspring fairly well. Never cared much for the
BSD's, although only ever tried the FreeBSD variant and that was
long ago. Never really saw the point of it - what does it do any
better than Linux...?



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From: John McCoy (1:249/400)
To: n/a
Date: Tue, 15.09.20 03:50
Re: Slackware 15.0
On 14 Sep 2020, Nick Andre said the following...

NA> guys I knew used to complain loudly about the many wonderful problems of
NA> systemd.

Shoehorning everything plus the kitchen sink, which is itself full of other,
smaller kitchen sinks in various states of disrepair, into the one process
that is basically God on the system? What could possibly go wrong?

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From: Richard Falken (1:123/115)
To: n/a
Date: Tue, 15.09.20 09:12
Re: Slackware 15.0
Re: Re: Slackware 15.0
By: Dan Clough to Richard Falken on Mon Sep 14 2020 09:53 pm

> I may give it (Devuan) another look one of these days. I do like
> Debian and it's offspring fairly well. Never cared much for the
> BSD's, although only ever tried the FreeBSD variant and that was
> long ago. Never really saw the point of it - what does it do any
> better than Linux...?

FreeBSD used to have proper jails and great ZFS integration, but I don't know
how
great of an advantage it has on those fields these days.

What OpenBSD does is to feel less insane than the others. To begin with, it has
less
cruft going on. If you don'tknow how something works, it is easier to figure it
out
form the source code than it is from the source code of some of the
alternatives. Not
that you are likely to need it since everything is well documented.

Traditionally risky daemons are chrooted and subject to privilege deprivation.
BSD
Auth is easier to understand and work with than something like PAM. The TCP
stack you
would have to harden after every Linux install is set with sane defaults in
OpenBSD.

Also, it comes with software enough to build your own packaging compiling
cluster. The
port system is so fun to break havoc with Smile

Cherry on the top: the OpenBSD comunity has a reputation of being composed of
unfriendly bastards. I think that reputation is overblown, but they really have
an
Iron Fist of Death when dealing with drama. Anybody strong enough to remain
active in
the community is granted to really care for the OS - ie. if you pop up in the
IRC
channel you are likely to find people who LIVES OpenBSD, as opposed to
self-entitled
brats you often find in some forums.

Oh, and OpenBSD has PF. Some people prefers it over Linux packet filtering
interfaces.
It is a matter of taste, really. Same with the default smtp daemon or httpd.
Those are
a delight to work with and are so much logical and preasurable to configure
than the
minastream ones you'd find in the Linux world.

IMO you could do what you do with an OpenBSD with a Linux, but when deploying
some
paket forwarder or small server, or a small web service, OpenBSD gives you less
post-instll work to do and the whole thing seems more logical in general. I
mean, the
Filesystem Hierarchy the Linux world routinely rapes.... you suggest putting
the wrong
file in the worng place in the OpenBSD world and they will send Skynet for you.

That said, OpenBSD has its own bunch of problems, like lacking proper cow for
the
filesystem. They also lack a MAC framework - they have other ways to mitigate
break-ins, exploits, and what a program may access, but you won't find SElinux
or AppArmor capabilities at kernel level.

I think that pretty much sums it up.


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From: Dan Clough (1:123/115)
To: n/a
Date: Tue, 15.09.20 09:35
Re: Slackware 15.0
-=> Richard Falken wrote to Dan Clough <=-

> I may give it (Devuan) another look one of these days. I do like
> Debian and it's offspring fairly well. Never cared much for the
> BSD's, although only ever tried the FreeBSD variant and that was
> long ago. Never really saw the point of it - what does it do any
> better than Linux...?

RF> FreeBSD used to have proper jails and great ZFS integration, but
RF> I don't know how great of an advantage it has on those fields
RF> these days.

RF> What OpenBSD does is to feel less insane than the others. To
RF> begin with, it has less cruft going on. If you don'tknow how
RF> something works, it is easier to figure it out form the source
RF> code than it is from the source code of some of the alternatives.
RF> Not that you are likely to need it since everything is well
RF> documented.

RF> Traditionally risky daemons are chrooted and subject to privilege
RF> deprivation. BSD Auth is easier to understand and work with than
RF> something like PAM. The TCP stack you would have to harden after
RF> every Linux install is set with sane defaults in OpenBSD.

RF> Also, it comes with software enough to build your own packaging
RF> compiling cluster. The port system is so fun to break havoc with
RF> Smile

RF> Cherry on the top: the OpenBSD comunity has a reputation of being
RF> composed of unfriendly bastards. I think that reputation is
RF> overblown, but they really have an Iron Fist of Death when
RF> dealing with drama. Anybody strong enough to remain active in the
RF> community is granted to really care for the OS - ie. if you pop
RF> up in the IRC channel you are likely to find people who LIVES
RF> OpenBSD, as opposed to self-entitled brats you often find in some
RF> forums.

RF> Oh, and OpenBSD has PF. Some people prefers it over Linux packet
RF> filtering interfaces. It is a matter of taste, really. Same with
RF> the default smtp daemon or httpd. Those are a delight to work
RF> with and are so much logical and preasurable to configure than
RF> the minastream ones you'd find in the Linux world.

RF> IMO you could do what you do with an OpenBSD with a Linux, but
RF> when deploying some paket forwarder or small server, or a small
RF> web service, OpenBSD gives you less post-instll work to do and
RF> the whole thing seems more logical in general. I mean, the
RF> Filesystem Hierarchy the Linux world routinely rapes.... you
RF> suggest putting the wrong file in the worng place in the OpenBSD
RF> world and they will send Skynet for you.

RF> That said, OpenBSD has its own bunch of problems, like lacking
RF> proper cow for the filesystem. They also lack a MAC framework -
RF> they have other ways to mitigate break-ins, exploits, and what a
RF> program may access, but you won't find SElinux or AppArmor
RF> capabilities at kernel level.

RF> I think that pretty much sums it up.

Thanks for that info, good insight there. It (OpenBSD) interests
me some, but frankly, I don't have the time nor motivation to go
through the learning curve for something that does pretty much
what I already know how to do... That was kinda my point - if I
was a Windoze guy looking to move to the *nix world, perhaps it
would make good sense. But as an experienced Linux guy, well....
not so much. Appreciate you taking the time to write that up!



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From: mark lewis (1:3634/12)
To: n/a
Date: Tue, 15.09.20 12:03
Re: Slackware 15.0
Re: Re: Slackware 15.0
By: John McCoy to Nick Andre on Tue Sep 15 2020 01:50:30


JMC> Shoehorning everything plus the kitchen sink, which is itself full
JMC> of other, smaller kitchen sinks in various states of disrepair,
JMC> into the one process that is basically God on the system? What
JMC> could possibly go wrong?

/me bets most any enlightened winwhatever user can answer that question ;)


)\/(ark
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From: Gerrit Kuehn (2:240/12)
To: n/a
Date: Tue, 15.09.20 16:46
Re: Slackware 15.0
Hello Richard!

15 Sep 20 07:12, Richard Falken wrote to Dan Clough:

RF> FreeBSD used to have proper jails and great ZFS integration, but I
RF> don't know how great of an advantage it has on those fields these days.

It still has proper jails and great ZFS integration. The latter will share the
codebase with the Linux variant starting the next release, I think (after other
players like OpenSolaris & co. dropped out). Apart from storage, networking has
always been one of the things FreeBSD excels at.

RF> Oh, and OpenBSD has PF. Some people prefers it over Linux packet
RF> filtering interfaces.

It's certainly a better choice from my point of view. It comes with FreeBSD,
too (although a previous version), as one of the three or so built-in packet
filters to choose from.


Regards,
Gerrit

... 3:47PM up 240 days, 5:44, 7 users, load averages: 0.22, 0.45, 0.47

--- Msged/BSD 6.1.2
* Origin: Dry thoughts for the tenant (2:240/12)

From: Benny Pedersen (2:230/0)
To: n/a
Date: Tue, 15.09.20 22:35
Re: Slackware 15.0
Hello Nick!

14 Sep 2020 11:54, Nick Andre wrote to Benny Pedersen:

BP>> gentoo have it default disabled in kernel, but if users or even admins
BP>> want the trouble it can be enabled, is slackware the one that miss
BP>> portage from gentoo ?

NA> I messed around with Gentoo only once, about like 15 years ago.

why leave it then ?

NA> Seemed like it was really meant for sadomasochists Cool

new word for me

i think time have changed lots since


Regards Benny

... there can only be one way of life, and it works Smile

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/5.8.9-gentoo-x86_64 (x86_64)Wink
* Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)

From: Nick Andre (1:229/426)
To: n/a
Date: Tue, 15.09.20 21:27
Re: Slackware 15.0
On 15 Sep 20 20:35:26, Benny Pedersen said the following to Nick Andre:

BP> NA> I messed around with Gentoo only once, about like 15 years ago.
BP>
BP> why leave it then ?

I prefer to have my computers work for me and not the other way around.

Nick

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* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

From: Benny Pedersen (2:230/0)
To: n/a
Date: Wed, 16.09.20 15:25
Re: Slackware 15.0
Hello Nick!

15 Sep 2020 19:27, Nick Andre wrote to Benny Pedersen:

NA> I prefer to have my computers work for me and not the other way
NA> around.

self made is not good ?, i just try keep away from precompiled problems Smile


Regards Benny

... there can only be one way of life, and it works Smile

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/5.8.9-gentoo-x86_64 (x86_64)Wink
* Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)

From: Nick Andre (1:229/426)
To: n/a
Date: Wed, 16.09.20 14:05
Re: Slackware 15.0
On 16 Sep 20 13:25:10, Benny Pedersen said the following to Nick Andre:

BP> NA> I prefer to have my computers work for me and not the other way
BP> NA> around.
BP>
BP> self made is not good ?, i just try keep away from precompiled problems Smile

But thats the thing. *Everything* on Gentoo had to be compiled. Forget about a
Gentoo machine you can slap together in an hour or so to listen to music on,
watch movies, gaming, porn, etc. You spend more time screwing around with
compilers and all that just to have that feeling that its customized just for
you... Sorry, its just not something that floats my boat.

The end result of that custom Gentoo Linux box was really no different than if
I threw in a live-CD install of Xubuntu or Mint or something. With those
distros it mostly "worked" but given the nature of Linux, no offense to anyone
reading this, theres always fucking *something* that just doesn't work out of
the box like it does on Windows. As an example, I'm not replacing a video
card just because Linux can't make it work. Money doesn't grow on trees.

I know you're just being a silly Russian but if you don't like precompiled
stuff, that must logically mean you study *all* the source code that you
compile. Because... how do you know theres not some backdoor or vulnerability?
Have you personally combed through the entire Linux kernal source?

Nick

--- Renegade vY2Ka2
* Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (1:229/426)

From: Richard Falken (1:103/705)
To: n/a
Date: Wed, 16.09.20 16:07
Re: Slackware 15.0
Re: Re: Slackware 15.0
By: Nick Andre to Benny Pedersen on Wed Sep 16 2020 12:05 pm

> I know you're just being a silly Russian but if you don't like precompiled
> stuff, that must logically mean you study *all* the source code that you
> compile. Because... how do you know theres not some backdoor or vulnerabilit
> Have you personally combed through the entire Linux kernal source?

Liking ports systems does not mean you study the whole source code.

I have some ports systems that allow me to create packages that feature my own
patches. It is convenient. BUt it does not mean I have to go through all the
source code in the ports tree to enjoy the advantages of a port system.

Also, using ports systems does not mean you are a tin-foil hat wearer.
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From: Benny Pedersen (2:230/0)
To: n/a
Date: Thu, 17.09.20 08:02
Re: Slackware 15.0
Hello Richard!

16 Sep 2020 14:07, Richard Falken wrote to Nick Andre:

RF> Liking ports systems does not mean you study the whole source code.

are debian / ubuntu / centos / redhat variants even do this ?

RF> I have some ports systems that allow me to create packages that
RF> feature my own patches. It is convenient. BUt it does not mean I have to
go through
RF> all the source code in the ports tree to enjoy the advantages of a port
RF> system.

i find it funny that Nick thinks kernel source in gentoo have more secureity
holes then any precompiled systems like slackware

RF> Also, using ports systems does not mean you are a tin-foil hat wearer.

all just need portage


Regards Benny

... there can only be one way of life, and it works Smile

--- Msged/LNX 6.1.2 (Linux/5.8.9-gentoo-x86_64 (x86_64)Wink
* Origin: I will always keep a PC running CPM 3.0 (2:230/0)

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