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From: Chris Green (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 15:27
Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>

Well now I'm really stumped.

I'm trying to get my Pi 4 to boot from a (fairly small, 500Gb) hard
disk. I've tried creating the image various ways (dd on Linux,
rpi-imager, etc.Wink and nothing worked.

So I tried creating an image on a USB stick (an 8Gb Kingston one) and
that works perfectly OK.

I've compared the contents of the USB stick and the USB drive and they
look identical, they both mount without problems on the Pi when it's
running from its SD card.

When I try and boot from the USB disk I get the error code for "Kernel
image not found".

The only thing I can think may be happening is that the eeprom boot
code isn't as 'clever' as the normal disk mounting code in the OS and,
thus, for some reason can't mount and read from the USB disk but can
mount and read the USB stick.

However I'm a bit stuck now, I don't really want to go and buy another
USB disk and find that doesn't work either.

--
Chris Green
·

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: The Natural Philosopher (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 16:41
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>

On 15/12/2021 15:27, Chris Green wrote:
> Well now I'm really stumped.
>
> I'm trying to get my Pi 4 to boot from a (fairly small, 500Gb) hard
> disk. I've tried creating the image various ways (dd on Linux,
> rpi-imager, etc.Wink and nothing worked.
>
> So I tried creating an image on a USB stick (an 8Gb Kingston one) and
> that works perfectly OK.
>
> I've compared the contents of the USB stick and the USB drive and they
> look identical, they both mount without problems on the Pi when it's
> running from its SD card.
>
> When I try and boot from the USB disk I get the error code for "Kernel
> image not found".
>
> The only thing I can think may be happening is that the eeprom boot
> code isn't as 'clever' as the normal disk mounting code in the OS and,
> thus, for some reason can't mount and read from the USB disk but can
> mount and read the USB stick.
>
> However I'm a bit stuck now, I don't really want to go and buy another
> USB disk and find that doesn't work either.
>
How is the 500GB drive partitioned? And what format are its partitions?
You need a small boot partition in FAT32 format and the rest can be an EXT4.

You should then be able to rsync /boot from a working SD card to the
boot partition and copy the rest of the card to the much larger ext4
partition using rsync etc.


--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Pancho (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 16:58
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com>

On 15/12/2021 15:27, Chris Green wrote:
> Well now I'm really stumped.
>
> I'm trying to get my Pi 4 to boot from a (fairly small, 500Gb) hard
> disk. I've tried creating the image various ways (dd on Linux,
> rpi-imager, etc.Wink and nothing worked.
>

I'm rather ignorant of Linux OS config. Why would you want to move the
boot off SD. Move your apps off the SD, sure, it is quite nice to have a
separation between apps and OS. Apps often do a lot of disk IO.

I've always assumed the OS itself doesn't do a bunch of writing to the
SD card. No swapping, maybe a few logfiles. (note to self) I should check.

The apps themselves can be in docker containers and hence the OS needs
very little config, The SD can easily be swapped in case of disaster.
You can script up provisioning if you are really keen, or just have a
git repo, with all the key files.

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Chris Green (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 16:54
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 15/12/2021 15:27, Chris Green wrote:
> > Well now I'm really stumped.
> >
> > I'm trying to get my Pi 4 to boot from a (fairly small, 500Gb) hard
> > disk. I've tried creating the image various ways (dd on Linux,
> > rpi-imager, etc.Wink and nothing worked.
> >
> > So I tried creating an image on a USB stick (an 8Gb Kingston one) and
> > that works perfectly OK.
> >
> > I've compared the contents of the USB stick and the USB drive and they
> > look identical, they both mount without problems on the Pi when it's
> > running from its SD card.
> >
> > When I try and boot from the USB disk I get the error code for "Kernel
> > image not found".
> >
> > The only thing I can think may be happening is that the eeprom boot
> > code isn't as 'clever' as the normal disk mounting code in the OS and,
> > thus, for some reason can't mount and read from the USB disk but can
> > mount and read the USB stick.
> >
> > However I'm a bit stuck now, I don't really want to go and buy another
> > USB disk and find that doesn't work either.
> >
> How is the 500GB drive partitioned? And what format are its partitions?
> You need a small boot partition in FAT32 format and the rest can be an EXT4.
>
It was created directly by copying the Pi distribution image to it,
that creates it as above. I tried with dd directly and using
rpi-imager, they both produced the same as far as I can see.


> You should then be able to rsync /boot from a working SD card to the
> boot partition and copy the rest of the card to the much larger ext4
> partition using rsync etc.
>
If I could get a brand new built by the default "how to make a Pi"
process to work first then I might try the above to get 'my' files on
it but at the moment I can't even get a pristine new Raspberry Pi
image to boot.

--
Chris Green
·

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: nelsonse48@gmail.com (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 09:11
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: nelsonse48@gmail.com <nelso...@gmail.com>

Add rootdelay=5 to cmdline.txt on /boot partitions if it is not already there.
This allows the HD time to spin up. Flash devices respond quick enough but
physical drives need time to become active. $0.02
--Steven

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Chris Green (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 17:26
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>

nelso...@gmail.com <nelsonse48@gmail.com> wrote:
> Add rootdelay=5 to cmdline.txt on /boot partitions if it is not already
> there. This allows the HD time to spin up. Flash devices respond quick
> enough but physical drives need time to become active. $0.02

How's that going to help? /boot is on the USB disk.

This is replacing the SD card *completely* with a USB stick/disk.

--
Chris Green
·

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Chris Green (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 17:29
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>

Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 15/12/2021 15:27, Chris Green wrote:
> > Well now I'm really stumped.
> >
> > I'm trying to get my Pi 4 to boot from a (fairly small, 500Gb) hard
> > disk. I've tried creating the image various ways (dd on Linux,
> > rpi-imager, etc.Wink and nothing worked.
> >
>
> I'm rather ignorant of Linux OS config. Why would you want to move the
> boot off SD. Move your apps off the SD, sure, it is quite nice to have a
> separation between apps and OS. Apps often do a lot of disk IO.
>
> I've always assumed the OS itself doesn't do a bunch of writing to the
> SD card. No swapping, maybe a few logfiles. (note to self) I should check.
>
> The apps themselves can be in docker containers and hence the OS needs
> very little config, The SD can easily be swapped in case of disaster.
> You can script up provisioning if you are really keen, or just have a
> git repo, with all the key files.

Yes, I could just boot off the SD /boot partition and then have
everything on the spinning disk but that's a much messier (and
actually more difficult to configure) way than just 'boot off the USB'.


If the boot off the USB worked (well, it does from the stick) then
it's just a matter of removing the SD card and putting a USB drive
with the system image on it into the Pi and it "just works". Which it
does with a USB stick, but not with a drive.

--
Chris Green
·

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: The Natural Philosopher (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 17:54
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>

On 15/12/2021 16:54, Chris Green wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 15/12/2021 15:27, Chris Green wrote:
>>> Well now I'm really stumped.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to get my Pi 4 to boot from a (fairly small, 500Gb) hard
>>> disk. I've tried creating the image various ways (dd on Linux,
>>> rpi-imager, etc.Wink and nothing worked.
>>>
>>> So I tried creating an image on a USB stick (an 8Gb Kingston one) and
>>> that works perfectly OK.
>>>
>>> I've compared the contents of the USB stick and the USB drive and they
>>> look identical, they both mount without problems on the Pi when it's
>>> running from its SD card.
>>>
>>> When I try and boot from the USB disk I get the error code for "Kernel
>>> image not found".
>>>
>>> The only thing I can think may be happening is that the eeprom boot
>>> code isn't as 'clever' as the normal disk mounting code in the OS and,
>>> thus, for some reason can't mount and read from the USB disk but can
>>> mount and read the USB stick.
>>>
>>> However I'm a bit stuck now, I don't really want to go and buy another
>>> USB disk and find that doesn't work either.
>>>
>> How is the 500GB drive partitioned? And what format are its partitions?
>> You need a small boot partition in FAT32 format and the rest can be an EXT4.
>>
> It was created directly by copying the Pi distribution image to it,
> that creates it as above. I tried with dd directly and using
> rpi-imager, they both produced the same as far as I can see.
>
>
>> You should then be able to rsync /boot from a working SD card to the
>> boot partition and copy the rest of the card to the much larger ext4
>> partition using rsync etc.
>>
> If I could get a brand new built by the default "how to make a Pi"
> process to work first then I might try the above to get 'my' files on
> it but at the moment I can't even get a pristine new Raspberry Pi
> image to boot.
>
not even on an SD card?


--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Folderol (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 17:57
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Folderol <general@musically.me.uk>

On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 17:29:51 +0000
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:

>Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 15/12/2021 15:27, Chris Green wrote:
>> > Well now I'm really stumped.
>> >
>> > I'm trying to get my Pi 4 to boot from a (fairly small, 500Gb) hard
>> > disk. I've tried creating the image various ways (dd on Linux,
>> > rpi-imager, etc.Wink and nothing worked.
>> >
>>
>> I'm rather ignorant of Linux OS config. Why would you want to move the
>> boot off SD. Move your apps off the SD, sure, it is quite nice to have a
>> separation between apps and OS. Apps often do a lot of disk IO.
>>
>> I've always assumed the OS itself doesn't do a bunch of writing to the
>> SD card. No swapping, maybe a few logfiles. (note to self) I should check.
>>
>> The apps themselves can be in docker containers and hence the OS needs
>> very little config, The SD can easily be swapped in case of disaster.
>> You can script up provisioning if you are really keen, or just have a
>> git repo, with all the key files.
>
>Yes, I could just boot off the SD /boot partition and then have
>everything on the spinning disk but that's a much messier (and
>actually more difficult to configure) way than just 'boot off the USB'.
>
>
>If the boot off the USB worked (well, it does from the stick) then
>it's just a matter of removing the SD card and putting a USB drive
>with the system image on it into the Pi and it "just works". Which it
>does with a USB stick, but not with a drive.
>

Just as a matter of interest have you tried it with an SSD drive?

--
Basic

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: nelsonse48@gmail.com (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 10:03
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: nelsonse48@gmail.com <nelso...@gmail.com>

Power the HD using external power. Power up the rpi a few seconds after
starting the drive. Does that work? I boot from SD with root on the USB HD so
I needed the rootdelay to give the HD time to be ready.
--Steven

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: bob prohaska (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 18:55
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: bob prohaska <bp@www.zefox.net>

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> Well now I'm really stumped.
>
> I'm trying to get my Pi 4 to boot from a (fairly small, 500Gb) hard
> disk. I've tried creating the image various ways (dd on Linux,
> rpi-imager, etc.Wink and nothing worked.
>
> So I tried creating an image on a USB stick (an 8Gb Kingston one) and
> that works perfectly OK.
>

Mechanical disks "wake up" much slower than solid state devices. If
you haven't tried it yet, put an empty file named timeout in the DOS
paritions. Not sure it'll help, but it's a cheap experiment.

Good luck,

bob prohaska


> I've compared the contents of the USB stick and the USB drive and they
> look identical, they both mount without problems on the Pi when it's
> running from its SD card.
>
> When I try and boot from the USB disk I get the error code for "Kernel
> image not found".
>
> The only thing I can think may be happening is that the eeprom boot
> code isn't as 'clever' as the normal disk mounting code in the OS and,
> thus, for some reason can't mount and read from the USB disk but can
> mount and read the USB stick.
>
> However I'm a bit stuck now, I don't really want to go and buy another
> USB disk and find that doesn't work either.
>

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Chris Green (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 19:07
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>

nelso...@gmail.com <nelsonse48@gmail.com> wrote:
> Power the HD using external power. Power up the rpi a few seconds after
> starting the drive. Does that work? I boot from SD with root on the USB
> HD so I needed the rootdelay to give the HD time to be ready.

That *may* be the issue, at least I suspect it may be some sort of
power issue. The trouble is that the 500Gb USB drive has a funny
'micro USB 3.1' connector and the only cable I have goes straight to a
USB-A connector so I can't supply power externally very easily.

Connecting through a USB hub makes it work but that's only USB 2.

Strangely, having found that via the hub works I tried the drive in
one of the Pi's USB 2 connectors and *that worked* too!

I have a possible 320Gb candidate drive and an external USB-3 box with
separate power. I'll be trying that tomorrow.

--
Chris Green
·

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* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Chris Green (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 19:10
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>

Folderol <general@musically.me.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 17:29:51 +0000
> Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>
> >Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:
> >> On 15/12/2021 15:27, Chris Green wrote:
> >> > Well now I'm really stumped.
> >> >
> >> > I'm trying to get my Pi 4 to boot from a (fairly small, 500Gb) hard
> >> > disk. I've tried creating the image various ways (dd on Linux,
> >> > rpi-imager, etc.Wink and nothing worked.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I'm rather ignorant of Linux OS config. Why would you want to move the
> >> boot off SD. Move your apps off the SD, sure, it is quite nice to have a
> >> separation between apps and OS. Apps often do a lot of disk IO.
> >>
> >> I've always assumed the OS itself doesn't do a bunch of writing to the
> >> SD card. No swapping, maybe a few logfiles. (note to self) I should check.
> >>
> >> The apps themselves can be in docker containers and hence the OS needs
> >> very little config, The SD can easily be swapped in case of disaster.
> >> You can script up provisioning if you are really keen, or just have a
> >> git repo, with all the key files.
> >
> >Yes, I could just boot off the SD /boot partition and then have
> >everything on the spinning disk but that's a much messier (and
> >actually more difficult to configure) way than just 'boot off the USB'.
> >
> >
> >If the boot off the USB worked (well, it does from the stick) then
> >it's just a matter of removing the SD card and putting a USB drive
> >with the system image on it into the Pi and it "just works". Which it
> >does with a USB stick, but not with a drive.
> >
>
> Just as a matter of interest have you tried it with an SSD drive?
>
No, because I don't have a spare one.

If (as seems likely) it is a power problem then it's likely an SSD
will fix the problem.

--
Chris Green
·

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From: scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 22:53
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> How is the 500GB drive partitioned? And what format are its partitions?
>> You need a small boot partition in FAT32 format and the rest can be an EXT4.
>>
> It was created directly by copying the Pi distribution image to it,
> that creates it as above. I tried with dd directly and using
> rpi-imager, they both produced the same as far as I can see.

Did you update /etc/fstab and whatever disk configuration bits are in /boot?
The Raspberry Pi's SD card slot is /dev/mmcblk0, but a hard drive connected
over USB will be /dev/sda. Without the appropriate updates, the kernel
won't find the root filesystem and will hang.

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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From: Dennis Lee Bieber (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Wed, 15.12.21 18:44
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>

On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 19:07:08 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> declaimed the
following:


>
>Connecting through a USB hub makes it work but that's only USB 2.
>
USB-3 hubs are available... The trick is to find one that doesn't
revert all ports to the slowest device connected.


--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/

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From: Chris Green (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 16.12.21 09:44
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>

Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 19:07:08 +0000, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> declaimed the
> following:
>
>
> >
> >Connecting through a USB hub makes it work but that's only USB 2.
> >
> USB-3 hubs are available... The trick is to find one that doesn't
> revert all ports to the slowest device connected.
>
But it all adds to the cost, I'm trying to do this 'on the cheap' (not
that I'm really that skint but I just don't like spending money
unnecessarily).

In reality speed isn't a big issue so USB 2 is probably prefectly OK.
It's sole function is being a NAS and the added USB boot drive isn't
the backup drive so its speed is probably unimportant.

--
Chris Green
·

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

From: Chris Green (2:221/10)
To: All
Date: Thu, 16.12.21 09:53
Re: Pi 4 USB boot works with stick, doesn't work with drive
From: Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>

scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:
> Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> How is the 500GB drive partitioned? And what format are its partitions?
> >> You need a small boot partition in FAT32 format and the rest can be an
EXT4.
> >>
> > It was created directly by copying the Pi distribution image to it,
> > that creates it as above. I tried with dd directly and using
> > rpi-imager, they both produced the same as far as I can see.
>
> Did you update /etc/fstab and whatever disk configuration bits are in /boot?
> The Raspberry Pi's SD card slot is /dev/mmcblk0, but a hard drive connected
> over USB will be /dev/sda. Without the appropriate updates, the kernel
> won't find the root filesystem and will hang.
>
This is *booting* from the USB instead of from the SD, the installation
process creates the appropriate /etc/fstab entries in the image (or at
least configures the boot process so they are correct).

As noted elsewhere I have now successfully booted from the USB drive
(connected to a USB 2 connector instead of USB 3) with no SD card in
the Pi 4. This is simply a standard Pi image written to the USB drive
in the same way as one write an image to an SD card. No other
configuration is required.

--
Chris Green
·

---
* Origin: rbb.fidonet.fi - the fidonet nntp junction (2:221/10)

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